Will anyone inn Fianna Fail shout stop?

[stephenite]

Whilst it's an eon too late I do welcome the comments from Harney and the Greens. I'm also becoming less inclined to have any respect for Cowan, even if his supporters are busy trying to defend his lack of action against Ahern as a tactical manouvere to ensure that he is still in pole position come the inevitable removal of Bert, his distinct lack of back bone in taking the bull by the horns on this issue and orcherstrating the heave indicates a contempt for the public at large. Content to sit back and not dirty his hands. Sadly the Irish electorate deserve such contempt for their willingness to tolerate having this corrupt thief as Taoiseach.

Someone over at P.ie mentioned something I hadn't considered* - Charlie McCreevy returning from Brussels to contest the leadership, that would be intersting. And I'd rather have him than Cowan if given the choice betweeen the two.

* EDIT :  Somebody with more brains than me has made the point that Charlie is not a TD anymore, and would have to re-elected to the Dail for him to even be considered

[Declan]

Fianna Fail will need to skip a generation  when they appoint their next leader, to have any chance of restoring credibility.

Fianna Fail would need to disband and a new political party would need to be formed for them ever to restore credibility. Strokes, Cute Hoorism , lieing, cheating are part of their DNA and that's the way it'll always be.

[Zapatista]

I don't know if thats true Sthphenite. I know some party's say you must have a TD as leader but some party's don't. SF and the Socialist party leaders are not TDs and I think the PDs have recently changed this in their own party. Besides, when Ahern steps down he will proably (be told to) give up his seat which would lead to a by-election which Charlie could then take in BAs place. My money is on Brian Lenihan though. The more contempt FF show to the people and their partners in Government and the more arrogant they become makes the Government very shaky. After seeing FF responce today I would not rule out a collapse of Government and a new election.

[Leo]

Obviously one person in FF who isn't shouting stop is Dermot "Murphy is Clean" Ahern. He has just demonstarted the arrogance of modern day FF by stating that the issue of the Taoiseach being unable to account for huge sums of foreign currency, giving "conflicting evidence" (lies?) to a Dail-constituted Tribunal, obstructing the Tribunal, misleading the Dail, etc. etc. is a matter for "the party".
No, young Dermot, it is a matter for the people of Ireland or what is left of it as a Republic.
And beyond that it appears to be a matter for the Garda, Revenue,  and possbily CAB.
Gormless of the Greens has issued a toothless comment and Harney has always rowed back on her concerns before (Sheedy anyone? O'Flaherty?). I predict that it will take a revolt at the Greens conference to really get this momentum going.
What a sad pathetic political establishment we have. There is more integrity and backbone in Tom Gilmartin that this shower put together.

[Zapatista]

I have said it before and I will say it again. The President needs to take action in the interest of the country. The Army should be sent in now to take control of the situation. It is quite clear the Politicans, the Gardai, the Media and big business are are not trust worthy and are all involved in the destruction of democracy for their own benefit leaving the people to suffer at the hands of illegal activity on a national scale. Do the right thing Mrs President.

[Aaron Boone]

Eamon Dunphy, Eoghan Harris and John Waters are on The Late Late discussing Bertie. They are all interrupting each other and getting nowhere, so Bertie wriggles away again.

[stephenite]

I have said it before and I will say it again. The President needs to take action in the interest of the country. The Army should be sent in now to take control of the situation. It is quite clear the Politicans, the Gardai, the Media and big business are are not trust worthy and are all involved in the destruction of democracy for their own benefit leaving the people to suffer at the hands of illegal activity on a national scale. Do the right thing Mrs President.

What the Irish Army? Jesus wept, are you on drugs, what exactly would you like them to take control of, who will govern whilst these boys are "taking control"? You expect the army to be able to just step in and take over the policing of the entire state from the Gardai? Are you f**king mad?

Talk about a massive over reation, how exactly are the people suffering at the hands of illegal activity, is this happening on a mass scale - certainly things aren't great but let's not lose the run of ourselves here.

It's not Pakistan or anywhere near it at this stage and the further the President (uesless), the Army and everyone else steers clear until someone in Fianna Fail brings Bertie down the better off we will all be.

With regards to Charlie McCreevy coming back - I really couldn't give a fiddlers if the Pope is the leader of FF, the Taoiseach has to be an elected member of Dail Eireann and I was working under the assumption that any new Taoiseach would also be the leader of the Party

[Zapatista]

Stephenite - You asked about Charlie taken over the leadership. I assumed you meant the FF leadership.

If the army where to take control it would put an end to the bullshit. The country would still function through the civil service and other structures in already in place' An interim leader could be appointed until new elections where held. I do not expect them to take over policing from the Gardai but I do expect them to police those who seem to be above the Gardai like BA.

The people are suffering through the corruption of our leading politicans. Everything from health to transport to education is running far behind in the service it should be due to this corruption.

It is not Pakistan, it is Ireland and it is a disgrace! We put up with more shit than the Pakistani's do. Western corruption is no better than eastern or African corruption no matter who says it is.

The thing that pissed me off the most was the comment that the Taoiseach and his problems was a matter for FF and no one was going to tell FF what to do. It is quite clear FF believe that they own the offices they hold. The lack of responce to this shows that even the opposition believe FF own the office and if the opposition where elected they would own the office too. This disgusts me. I am a Republican and as a Republican I believe this corruption and lack of democracy must be crushed and replaced with Republicanism. If the only way to do this is sending in the army (Irish army or/and volunteers) then I would be in favour of that.

Do the right thing Mrs President.

[Lar Naparka]

This disgusts me. I am a Republican and as a Republican I believe this corruption and lack of democracy must be crushed and replaced with Republicanism.

Well, Zap, I too am a Republican but the name of Bob McCartney keeps coming to mind. There was an incident in Ongar, on the west side of Dublin that concerns me also and it is being held as the cause of Sinn Fein's poor showing in the last general election.

Which strand of Republicanism would do the "taking over?" I don't think I could go down that road with you. Anyone talking about the army intervening should bear in mind the fact that army generals the world over tend to stay on in power, long after the supposed reason for their taking over has disappeared.
In the meantime Alan Mahon's tribunal has been working away and is uncovering more unsavoury revelations all the time. If calls for the Gardai, or the CAB or the Revenue Commissioners to intervene had been heeded, when this thread was started, we would never have heard of Grainne Carruth.
The Tribunal would have been put in abeyance and might never resume its work. In the meantime, any move against Bertie would have been met by probably the best legal defense in the country and might not have succeeded in any event.
Did any of you ever stop to consider that Bertie might be wishing right now for such an intervention?
I certainly take no pleasure on seeing him in the mess that he is in but democracy is working and I'd like to see the process continued to a legal conclusion.

[Leo]

As I said,  Dermot  Ahern - and other senior FF figures - demonstrte an inate arrogance and a contempt for democrarcy and the people of Ireland by stating that the sensational issues bearing down on the Taoiseach are issues for him and "the party".
This should be challenged at every turn as should the fitness for office of many of the same ministers who protest that they believe Bertie (and, presumably the tooth fairy).
Quote Mr McEnroe - "You cannot be serious!" If you are, we are in the doo-doo big time.

[stephenite]

We put up with more shit than the Pakistani's do. Western corruption is no better than eastern or African corruption no matter who says it is.

That level of ignorance and stupidity saddens me - comparing contemparary Irish society to the conditions that people in these countries suffer dispalys an astounding lack of knowledge - go away and do a bit of reading before making further comments as to what other countries are better off than us.

Take the case of General Musharraf  (sp?) who led the army coup in Pakistan about 8 years ago, he's still in power and in that time he suspended the judicary and placed the chief justice under house arrest, closed down newspapers and TV stations, the leader of the opposition party in the lead up to the recent elections, Bhutto, was murdered. Are you seriously suggesting this is the sort of model we should follow?

As for the rest of your comments about republicanism saving Ireland - well God help us all if that occurs as that particular bunch of chavs and pikeys couldn't save shit and I'd far rather a corrupt Bertir Ahern leading the country than anyone that currently represent "republicanism". What strand of republicanism are you suggesting takes over?

Democracy has to run it's course and any deviation from that course is dangerous in the extreme - Bertie Ahern last year was given a significant mandate by the people of Ireland, it's not republicanism's job to distort the wishes of the majority in this country, they've tired that before and it didn't work so what makes you think it will work now?

To finish, the army would have no interest in taking any part in something like this, unless of course you're referring to a different 'private' army?

[Pangurban]

Would any of well-informed literate citizens care to attempt a definition of Republicanism, you are all arguing about it but displaying little understanding of the philosophy which underpins and defines it. Is Ireland a republic in the true sense of the word. Lets hear from you, hopefully generating light rather than heat

[stephenite]

Good call Pangurban - I wouldn't call the island of Ireland a Republic at the moment, I don't think it ever will be. However I also feel that the term Republicanism has been distorted in Ireland and many people (myself included) would have a confused sense of the true meaning.

If I hear republicanism mentioned I think of those prepared to use violence to acheive their aims of a United Ireland. I don't think of Fianna Fail or any of the main stream political parties (Shinners included) on the entire island.

The true meaning of republicanism that preaches liberty and equality for all citizens does not and cannot exist anywhere in my view - power corrupts etc.

[Lar Naparka]

I certainly can't!
Furthermore, I don't really see the point in deciding on a definition, if you can follow me; knowing something in theory is one thing and following it in practice is quite another.
An old teacher of mine, Vicky Mangan, was an absolute gentleman and a great instructor to boot. Vicky was also a Republican and had spells in the Curragh internment camp to show for his dedication to The Cause. Vicky belonged to the Ruairi O Bradaigh wing of Republicanism and would wax for hours on the benefits of running the country along (his) Republican ideals.
Even to 15-16 year olds, his ideas seemed crazy but his reasons for being a Republican were obvious enough; he could talk of the depredations of the Black & tans in our locality and of the oppression of the Nationalist people of Northern Ireland eloquently enough.

Even we could understand that "Tiocfaidh ar la" was fine but what was going to happen when that day finally came?
I worked in Finglas for over three decades and I saw Republicans in action there too. But I saw no similarity between the ideals of Vicky Mangan and the actions of the "Shinners" in Finglas. I'd put a bet that many of the individuals who spent their time in the Cappagh House, talking about a united Ireland wouldn't know the Ormeau Road if they were standing on it. I don't think I'd like to see a day with this brand of Republicanism in charge of the country.
Vicky wouldn't have approved of the murder of Bob McCartney either. Yet the thugs responsible would probably claim to be Republicans also.
It was easy to back republicanism when the causes of the oppression were plain to identify but from here on a different set of rules apply.
I'll give my definition of Republicanism when republicans decide on, and follow, theirs.

[deiseach]

There is more integrity and backbone in Tom Gilmartin that this shower put together.

I suppose this comment works even if you assume Tom Gilmartin is a man with little in the way of integrity - someone with little will still have more than those with none at all. But if the tribunal finds Tom Gilmartin's allegations to be believable, it will mean that he had his snout in the corrupt trough just as deep as the people he is accusing and the only reason he broke ranks was because he felt agrieved at not getting a big enough share of swill.

Gilmartin and O'Callaghan

Owen O'Callaghan and Tom Gilmartin were involved in developing rival sites in west Dublin. Cork-based O'Callaghan had the option on lands in Neilstown, which had the necessary D zoning under the 1983 Dublin development plan.

Bank memos show that O'Callaghan acknowledged from the start that the so-called Quarryvale lands Gilmartin was assembling were ''the best'' of the two sites.

Gilmartin's project had better access, while O'Callaghan's lands had been owned by various people for more than a decade without being developed.

The proximity of both sites meant that only one could have the desired D zoning, however. Gilmartin and O'Callaghan first became involved in a business capacity when they agreed in January 1989 that Gilmartin should acquire the option on Merrygrove, the company holding the Neilstown lands, for which he would pay O'Callaghan a down payment of £800,000.

This would leave the way clear for Gilmartin to develop Quarryvale, which would ultimately become the Liffey Valley shopping centre, one of the largest retail developments in the state. The Merrygrove option would be passed to Gilmartin for a further payment of £2.7 million, although the option had to be exercised by October 31 that year.

But by November 1, 1989, Gilmartin had not paid O'Callaghan half the money to exercise the option. Nor did he provide a bank guarantee by the following January in respect of the second half of the £2.7 million then owed.

AIB had become involved with Gilmartin when one of his companies, Barkhill, which held the well-accessed lands, needed funds to continue with the development of the Quarryvale lands. By 1991, AIB would go from being banker to shareholder in Barkhill.

Gilmartin has alleged for almost a decade that both AIB and O'Callaghan conspired to take over Barkhill. Gilmartin invested £4 million in the project, but was bought out for twice that sum.