AFL Invasion

[Zapatista]

Not another celtic/leprachaun gimic

[Jinxy]

Could some of the people who think all this AFL stuff will lead to some kind of doomsday scenario in the GAA just give me an idea of what the ACTUAL effect of this will be? Lets jump 5 years into the future. Every year we lose the 20 best minors in the country. What tangible effect will this have on the game itself? For example, if Meath lost a good young player I'd be disappointed but I'd get over it pretty quickly. There will be young lads falling over themselves to take his place on the county team. Also, outstanding minors don't always make outstanding seniors as we all know.

[pintsofguinness]

i'd watch them, it's not the worst idea, but i imagine there's zero chance of this coming off.  The time difference means that games will never be able to command decent time slots over here, so where could the revenue come from?  There's 20 million people over there with several unrepresented states/territories who would obviously be able to generate more revenue than an 'irish' side would.
However if we want to stop the drain of talent, maybe it's time we realised that paying players would be more productive than paying contractors to build more underutilised stadia/

And tell me again how the gaa could afford this?

[TBT]

Could some of the people who think all this AFL stuff will lead to some kind of doomsday scenario in the GAA just give me an idea of what the ACTUAL effect of this will be? Lets jump 5 years into the future. Every year we lose the 20 best minors in the country. What tangible effect will this have on the game itself? For example, if Meath lost a good young player I'd be disappointed but I'd get over it pretty quickly. There will be young lads falling over themselves to take his place on the county team. Also, outstanding minors don't always make outstanding seniors as we all know.

A future without Dara O Se/Sean Cavanagh/Graham Canty/Ciaran Whelan types ect  all the top athletic football types. A significant decline in the standard of senior intercounty.

[downtown]

How does these GAA players go about getting a trail? Anyone know that?

[Mentalman]

Let's look at the facts, as taken from the article in The Age:

- There will be a new side based in Western Sydney shortly. They appear to have already started on the stadium.
- Ricky Nixon is looking to get this franchise
- Mr. Nixon sees Ireland as a source of cheap ready trained talent
- He plans to sign up as many suitable Irish players as is possible with or without the GAA's blessing
- The former chairman of the GPA is also involved

I'm not sure if there will be a "Sydney Celtics" side, it's name is irrelevant. There will be a new side in western Sydney. If the personalities named above win that franchise then there will be an increasing number of young Irish players involved with that team, and it will have a higher profile in Ireland. The unrepresented states and territories will remain so for now, simply because Sydney is a massive market in itself which the AFL has targeted, see the success of relatively new Swans. The AFL is aggressively marketing their game, not only in Australia but abroad - it's only a couple of years since an Irish side won their world series, in a game used  as a curtain raiser to a Swan's game as I recall.  

As for what harm can it do, losing the odd player here and there? Losing the odd one is fine. Consistently losing some of our best players year on year is something else. Laois are already suffering, and it's not like GAA, specifically in Leinster, is going from strength to strength at the moment, with all the other competitors and pitfalls of modern life. If we have a consistent drain of young players to the AFL how long do you think before kids realise the traits it takes to make it in the AFL, and persue those themselves in the hope of getting a move - i.e. more suitable players to their game. Are our minor county sides to become the nurseries of the AFL? Will our kids watch AFL to see how our boys out there are doing as professional sports men? Could the GAA to become the League of Ireland to the the AFL's Premier League? Could our games to be left with the older players (GAA is increasingly a young man's game), the ones not suitable or good enough for the AFL, or those who didn't make it? The point of not every minor making it to senior is true, but if they took one good minor player from each county, each year, that has a cumulative effect at senior level. Add to that that the impact won't be uniform over counties, some will suffer more - i.e. an outstanding minor from Westmeath (if such a thing existed) would be missed more by his county than one from Dublin or Kerry - it can take a "lesser" county 10 years to build a side capable of challenging for a provinicial title after all.

Look, it's unlikely to be a Doomsday scenario like that BUT sticking our heads in the sand and hoping it won't happen is not the route to go either. We need to plan and make contingencies, especially now we are forewarned.

Here's the full article from The Age, in case you didn't see it on the AFL Invasion thread:

http://www.realfooty.com.au/articles/2008/07/11/1215658137146.html

THE AFL is considering a radical proposal to launch an Irish-dominated team in Sydney's western suburbs, which would perform before an international audience under the Celtic brand name.

Commission chairman Mike Fitzpatrick confirmed last night that the Irish option was being explored as a possible basis for the competition's 18th team, to debut as early as 2012.

The "Sydney Celtics" plan was first put to AFL chief executive Andrew Demetriou 18 months ago by Gaelic Players Association executive Donal O'Neill. It has gained momentum in recent weeks following player agent Ricky Nixon's talent-spotting tour of Ireland

Nixon has contacted Demetriou and Fitzpatrick in recent days and put forward a revised template for the AFL's 18th licence.

Mr Fitzpatrick said last night: "It's been put to us and while it's not without its issues it's something we'll explore. Ricky has made a reasonably compelling case and we are not discounting anything at this stage."

The Celtic proposal would bring an expanded television audience in Ireland and across Britain. The Celtic brand could also open a marketing bonanza given the international cache afforded the Boston Celtics (a basketball team) and the Glasgow Celtics (a soccer team).

Australia's Irish heritage and the AFL's historic relationship with Gaelic football add to the proposal's selling points. Currently nine Irish players feature on AFL club lists. The AFL's most famous Irishman Jim Stynes was recently appointed chairman of Melbourne.

The proposal originated at the International Rules series in Ireland in late 2006 where O'Neill put forward a plan to purchase an AFL licence in Sydney.

O'Neill came to Australia and in January 2007 met Demetriou and his football general manager Adrian Anderson, along with AFL Players' Association chief executive Brendon Gale.

The talks were kept secret largely because of domestic political concerns in Ireland, where players remain amateur despite the fact that the Irish governing body, the Gaelic Athletic Association, boasts $4 billion in assets.

Demetriou yesterday confirmed the meeting with O'Neill, who reportedly put forward a detailed business plan involved millions of dollars in funding emanating from the US and Britain as well as Ireland.

The AFL chief executive said yesterday: "To call this embryonic is an understatement. We are looking at several proposals and we have been forwarded all sorts of ideas."

Gale said of the proposal: "When it was first raised I saw it as a soft but effective way of internationalising our game and growing it domestically. Clearly there are some incredible structural challenges but I saw it as worthy of referring on ... As a blank canvas I think it has merit."

While the AFL has started construction on its new home base for its team out of western Sydney — a boutique stadium in Rooty Hill near Blacktown — it is not expected to grant its 18th licence for about 12 months.

The western Sydney working party devising player rules and draft concessions for the second Sydney team is due to meet next on July 22.

At this stage the Irish proposal has not been officially discussed by the AFL's NSW-ACT operation. One misgiving among senior league executives is the fall-out associated with creating a team heavily based upon a national or cultural identity, something which has caused deep divisions in soccer in the past.

Nixon, a former teammate of Fitzpatrick at Carlton, launched his talent-spotting project earlier this year across all 32 Irish counties. He has signed five AFL clubs (each at a cost of $30,000), with the promise of identifying at least one Irish youngster for each club's senior list.

Recently engaged in a war of words with Sydney premiership player and Listowel native Tadhg Kennelly, who accused Nixon of plundering Irish talent, Nixon has workshopped the Celtic proposal with at least two AFL club chief executives.

[Bogball XV]

i'd watch them, it's not the worst idea, but i imagine there's zero chance of this coming off.  The time difference means that games will never be able to command decent time slots over here, so where could the revenue come from?  There's 20 million people over there with several unrepresented states/territories who would obviously be able to generate more revenue than an 'irish' side would.
However if we want to stop the drain of talent, maybe it's time we realised that paying players would be more productive than paying contractors to build more underutilised stadia/

And tell me again how the gaa could afford this?

easy enough to come up with a deal acceptable to everybody, you don't have to pay fortunes, just enough so that lads get to be more or less full time gaa employees for their peak years, they can coach in schools in the mornings and train in the afternoons.  AFL don't pay out huge amounts, rookie contracts are approx €8000 p.a, i think we could match that?  Even now, i think setanta o'hailpin is on less than €30,000 so if we can show lads an alternative, then maybe we can compete?  I also think that in order to attract interest from foreigners living here we need to come up with a few quid for them.
AFL isn't our biggest problem anyway, imo it's rugby, that does give talented youngsters a realistic opportunity of becoming a professional here in ireland, again the money isn't great for the most of them, so we should be able to compete with that.

[Jinxy]

Could some of the people who think all this AFL stuff will lead to some kind of doomsday scenario in the GAA just give me an idea of what the ACTUAL effect of this will be? Lets jump 5 years into the future. Every year we lose the 20 best minors in the country. What tangible effect will this have on the game itself? For example, if Meath lost a good young player I'd be disappointed but I'd get over it pretty quickly. There will be young lads falling over themselves to take his place on the county team. Also, outstanding minors don't always make outstanding seniors as we all know.

A future without Dara O Se/Sean Cavanagh/Graham Canty/Ciaran Whelan types ect  all the top athletic football types. A significant decline in the standard of senior intercounty.

Yeah but if they never played senior intercounty you wouldn't know what you were missing. Outside of their own counties, for the most part when all the players you named were minors nobody else knew anything about them. I suppose it's a bit of a tree falling in the woods scenario. I've heard of most of the lads that are rumoured to be heading over to Oz in the next year or so with a few exceptions, but I follow the minor scene very closely. The majority of GAA fans don't (outside of their own counties). As for the suggestion that standards will fall, I don't think it's that simple. Look at Anthony Moyles and Ger Spillane. Two guys who came relatively late to the senior intercounty scene (both graduating from the junior ranks). They are in the top 5 centre backs in the country now. I think the standard will stay the same to be honest. Plus, given the nature of recruitment where the net is cast far and wide as it doesn't involve much of a financial outlay, you will undoubtedly get a lot of guys coming back after their 2 year rookie contract is up. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather lads stayed here and played football but I wouldn't begrudge them a move to Oz and the best of luck to them out there. Any talk of introducing professionalism to counter this supposed threat is so far off the mark you'd need a telescope to see it. Let's be realistic here.

[Mentalman]

Could some of the people who think all this AFL stuff will lead to some kind of doomsday scenario in the GAA just give me an idea of what the ACTUAL effect of this will be? Lets jump 5 years into the future. Every year we lose the 20 best minors in the country. What tangible effect will this have on the game itself? For example, if Meath lost a good young player I'd be disappointed but I'd get over it pretty quickly. There will be young lads falling over themselves to take his place on the county team. Also, outstanding minors don't always make outstanding seniors as we all know.

A future without Dara O Se/Sean Cavanagh/Graham Canty/Ciaran Whelan types ect  all the top athletic football types. A significant decline in the standard of senior intercounty.

Yeah but if they never played senior intercounty you wouldn't know what you were missing. Outside of their own counties, for the most part when all the players you named were minors nobody else knew anything about them. I suppose it's a bit of a tree falling in the woods scenario. I've heard of most of the lads that are rumoured to be heading over to Oz in the next year or so with a few exceptions, but I follow the minor scene very closely. The majority of GAA fans don't (outside of their own counties). As for the suggestion that standards will fall, I don't think it's that simple. Look at Anthony Moyles and Ger Spillane. Two guys who came relatively late to the senior intercounty scene (both graduating from the junior ranks). They are in the top 5 centre backs in the country now. I think the standard will stay the same to be honest. Plus, given the nature of recruitment where the net is cast far and wide as it doesn't involve much of a financial outlay, you will undoubtedly get a lot of guys coming back after their 2 year rookie contract is up. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather lads stayed here and played football but I wouldn't begrudge them a move to Oz and the best of luck to them out there. Any talk of introducing professionalism to counter this supposed threat is so far off the mark you'd need a telescope to see it. Let's be realistic here.

To be fair Moyles and Spillane are far from typical.

There are a lot of imponderables in this system, but it stands to reason if you consistently lose some of your better, younger players the quality of your product decreases. And people do notice. Just look at attendances at hurling matches in Leinster. You may say it's because Kilkenny are so strong, which is true, but it's also because the other counties are so weak. Losing good young players will only make the smaller counties weaker. Which is grand if al your interested in seeing is Dublin vs Meath & Kerry vs Cork, I just don't think people will stay too interested for too long. As I said above maybe the LOI vs Premier League is a bit too extreme a comparison. But maybe something like the Swedish Allsvensken where the very best leave when they are young and come back when they are older. Or New Zealand and the other South Sea islanders, where the NZ clubs cherry pick the very best, hamstringing their home nations. Or the situation that pertained between Rugby League and Union when Union was amateur.

You say be realistic. I say forewarned is forearmed. I would never criticise a young lad for taking the chance to follow his dream of being a professional athlete. On the other hand we have to look after the best interests of our own sport.

[Jinxy]

There is absolutely no comparison between football and hurling. The so-called "weaker" counties in football have never been stronger than they are now. To illustrate this we have two division 3 teams contesting provincial finals in Ulster & Leinster, a situation that could never, and will never, occur in hurling.

[Mentalman]

There is absolutely no comparison between football and hurling. The so-called "weaker" counties in football have never been stronger than they are now. To illustrate this we have two division 3 teams contesting provincial finals in Ulster & Leinster, a situation that could never, and will never, occur in hurling.

That wasn't the point at all. The point is if the lesser counties are weakened, and the championship becomes a procession between 3 or 4 counties people will not pay to see it. Whether lesser counties are stronger than ever right now is not the issue, it's  what the effect a drain of talent could have on them in future. Anyway I wouldn't say the weaker counties are stronger than ever - Leinster is a weak and none of our counties have contested an All-Ireland final in some time, indeed semis have been hard to come by - but that's a completely different argument, not related. The point was whether standards will drop, or will you notice as those players never made it to senior level. It stands to reason standards would drop, and people will notice eventually, and your game isn't as attractive anymore to the non-committed. Anyway, like I said, it's not the apocalypse but sitting on our hands is not the solution either.

[Jinxy]

There is absolutely no comparison between football and hurling. The so-called "weaker" counties in football have never been stronger than they are now. To illustrate this we have two division 3 teams contesting provincial finals in Ulster & Leinster, a situation that could never, and will never, occur in hurling.

That wasn't the point at all. The point is if the lesser counties are weakened, and the championship becomes a procession between 3 or 4 counties people will not pay to see it. Whether lesser counties are stronger than ever right now is not the issue, it's  what the effect a drain of talent could have on them in future. Anyway I wouldn't say the weaker counties are stronger than ever - Leinster is a weak and none of our counties have contested an All-Ireland final in some time, indeed semis have been hard to come by - but that's a completely different argument, not related. The point was whether standards will drop, or will you notice as those players never made it to senior level. It stands to reason standards would drop, and people will notice eventually, and your game isn't as attractive anymore to the non-committed. Anyway, like I said, it's not the apocalypse but sitting on our hands is not the solution either.

Meath and Dublin were in the semi's last year, Dublin the year before. I still maintain that standards will not drop noticeably. Other players will step up to fill the breach. There have been plenty of lads down through the years who were not outstanding minors but developed into outstanding seniors. Once a guy hits his 20's he is pretty much safe from the recruiters as the time required to develop him makes it a bad investment. As for people not turning up to watch teams unless they have a chance of winning the All-Ireland, if that was the situation you wouldn't get many going to the games as it stands. For most people, the entertainment is derived from seeing their team put it up to one of the big guns or beat a neighbouring county and maybe get a day out in Croke Park. I think most people are realistic to know that their county has a very slim chance of winning the All-Ireland. As the saying goes, it's more about the journey than the destination. 

[Gnevin]

[pintsofguinness]

bogball

easy enough to come up with a deal acceptable to everybody, you don't have to pay fortunes, just enough so that lads get to be more or less full time gaa employees for their peak years, they can coach in schools in the mornings and train in the afternoons.  AFL don't pay out huge amounts, rookie contracts are approx €8000 p.a, i think we could match that?  Even now, i think setanta o'hailpin is on less than €30,000 so if we can show lads an alternative, then maybe we can compete?  I also think that in order to attract interest from foreigners living here we need to come up with a few quid for them.
AFL isn't our biggest problem anyway, imo it's rugby, that does give talented youngsters a realistic opportunity of becoming a professional here in ireland, again the money isn't great for the most of them, so we should be able to compete with that.

AFL wages are a lot higher then that according to what I've read on here - it's not really relevant as the GAA couldnt afford anything like that anyway.  Plus, on those wages, what do these players plan to do when they are no longer able to play? 


Another thing, we're constantly talking on here about the threat the AFL has on the GAA yet we've got a 18 page thread on the main gaa section of the board discussing AFL games/players etc?  HA!

[Mentalman]

Meath and Dublin were in the semi's last year, Dublin the year before.

The point about Leinster football isn't all that relevant to the debate but only one Leinster county has contested a final since the current format was brought in, 2001, your own. Prior to that it was your own again, winning in 1999. Two finalists. Again off the top of my head other the semi finalists you named, Leinster counties have contest 2 others, 2001 obviously, and Dublin on another occasion. For a province representing 3/5 of the national population that's not fighting your weight, there are obviously other factors at play though.

I still maintain that standards will not drop noticeably. Other players will step up to fill the breach. There have been plenty of lads down through the years who were not outstanding minors but developed into outstanding seniors. Once a guy hits his 20's he is pretty much safe from the recruiters as the time required to develop him makes it a bad investment.

I'm not sure about other players filling the breach, other players as good as those gone? The best players are the best for a reason, and imediate substitutes are not readily available, at least not in most counties. The second point about guys been better at 21 say than at 18 is well made though. Hopefully we will not have to have that thesis tested, I just don't think we can afford to be complacent.

As for people not turning up to watch teams unless they have a chance of winning the All-Ireland, if that was the situation you wouldn't get many going to the games as it stands. For most people, the entertainment is derived from seeing their team put it up to one of the big guns or beat a neighbouring county and maybe get a day out in Croke Park. I think most people are realistic to know that their county has a very slim chance of winning the All-Ireland. As the saying goes, it's more about the journey than the destination. 

Your kind of putting words in my mouth there, as that wasn't the point I was making at all. Believe me as a Westmeath man I understand more than most that it's about the journey not the destination And I also know what it means to beat your neighbours and get a day in Croker. And anything that reduces your competitiveness is bad, and in my opinion smaller counties losing talented minors will do that. I notice a lot more folks following football in my own county in the last 12/13 years since we became somewhat competitive. At the same time the hurling following has fallen off since the 80's because there was no hope of even wining a championship game in Leinster. Following from that I never thought I'd see only 15,000 showing up for a Leinster hurling final. People won't go to games if their  counties are not going to be competitive. No, actually, I'll correct that. People are more likely to follow their county if they are competitive. Not a problem in counties like your own where being competitive is more or less expected, but it is in the lesser lights. That's why I think a talent drain could/would effect the smaller counties, making them less competitive, therefore reducing the quality over all of the championship. But as I said before, there are a lot of imponderables in this whole equation.