Spotlight on BBC 6 Counties tomorrow night

[ziggysego]

Does this make me a bigot? Yes or no?

YES!! Wait 'till I tell the OWC crowd this evening! 

[his holiness nb]

Does this make me a bigot? Yes or no?

YES!! Wait 'till I tell the OWC crowd this evening! 

Mods Ziggy called me a bigot, he's out of control I'm telling ya!!

[Evil Genius]

McCann was using that to illustrate that just as there are bigots on the Unionist side who infect soccer in NI, they also have their exact counterparts on the Nationalist side, who are so prejudiced that they'd sooner support England - their oppressor for 800 years - than lend support to their fellow Irish neighbours.

I've got to contradict you there NIFAN, i don't know a single person, with the exception of some very nice english gentlemen I play soccer with that wanted England to win. you can talk all you like about the ABMU crowd but pretty much the rest of the planet is ABE.

It was me, not nifan, who posted that. Of course, I have no way of knowing how many NI Nats were hoping England would win, but there is no doubt that Fearon was not the only one. Below is an article from the late-lamented Daily Ireland, written on the eve of the match, by Robin Livingstone, Editor of the Andersonstown News. It is followed by a reply from Eamonn McCann - note the section which I have emboldened!



Here's hoping England give Norn Iron a good spanking

Robin Livingstone

"At first I thought a lizard or a cicada had made its way up the leg of my shorts, so when it turned out that it was the silently vibrating mobile I was relieved.
Relieved even though I was on holiday and the text was from work, which normally is not good news. I pressed the button and read.
"Truth now. Wed night. Ulster v England. Who r u cheering on?"
To be honest, I was surprised and a little disappointed. Surprised that the sender of the text would be in any doubt about where I stand on the matter in hand, and disappointed that the the bottomless pit of enmity and the cavernous morass of malice that I bear towards Our Wee Pravince has not by this time articulated itself to everyone who knows me. The thumb fairly flew over the keys.
"Three lions on the shirt fella."
I've mentioned before in this column that the dread words 'Northern Ireland' never pass my lips. Not only that, but I physically wince every time I hear them. Indeed, when the plane bringing me back from holiday landed at Belfast and the flight attendant with a Ballymena accent said that on behalf of the entire flight crew she'd like to welcome everybody on board to Northern Ireland, I looked up from my book and fired off a dirty look, but she didn't catch my eye and the gesture went fizzing past her averted head like a badly-aimed RPG.
So it should come as no surprise if I tell you that come Wednesday night, I will be cheering not only for an England win, but an emphatic England win; a trouncing, a rout, a spanking, a tanking, an embarrassment (but not a national embarrassment, of course).
Some people say politics has no place in sport, but then some people say Jackie Fullerton's a good commentator; some people say Lawrie Sanchez knows what he's doing; and some people say the IFA have kicked sectarianism out of Windsor Park. I've been there a few times and I have to say I'd feel more at home in the cheap seats at a Balkan derby. It's like the eleventh night but without a bonfire for entertainment.
And although this is not a prime reason for me opposing the statelet of my birth, let's face it, Lawrie's green and blue army aren't very good, are they? The sheepskin-coated clichés, that elsewhere help us towards a concise understanding of the game and the players, are used by the local BBC as a way of avoiding having to state the obvious:
• He'd die for the badge (And let's hope he does fairly soon);
• He's a good reader of the game (A bottle of milk would turn quicker);
• He's currently out of favour at Clacton Rovers (Even though the team has only ten players);
• He always gives 110 per cent (what of we're not entirely certain)"

Eamonn's reply:

Rooting for England

(Eamonn McCann, Sunday Journal)

"Here's hoping England give Norn Iron a good spanking," Andersonstown News editor Robin Livingstone breathed a fervent wish at the beginning of the week.

Many Nationalists across the North will have been wholly in agreement. Few will be fooled by ex-post-facto claims of satisfaction that, in the wondrous event, it was England took the spanking. Certain politicians pressed for a quote on Thursday morning made the best they could of their sad situation. Those who'd most fanatically hoped to see the North hammered were the ones with rictus grins now affixed to their faces as they forced themselves to say, sure, they were pleased the oul' enemy had left chastened and chased, with a flea in the ear and no points in the bag.

At the beginning of the week I took part in a handful of radio programmes in which I expressed my hope-against-hope that Lawrie's lads would eviscerate the Brit mixum-gatherum of millionaire mediocrities. One common Nationalist reaction was sheer incredulity. Ah, come on, you can't mean it...

Dunphy, Dunseith and Cooper separately suggested there was a stark contradiction here: militant Nationalists cheering on England (never-ending source of all our ills, and so forth) against an Irish eleven.

Maybe. And maybe not.

Take a closer look at Robin Livingstone's rant.

He would be disappointed, he reckoned, if "the bottomless pit of enmity and the cavernous morass of malice that I bear towards Our Wee Pravince has not by this time articulated itself to everyone who knows me."

The scornful mimicry of a supposedly distinctive Protestant/Unionist accent may not be as bad-minded as Bernard Manning jeering at the speech-patterns of "Pakis." The Andytown editor won't have seen it like that. But the parallels are close enough to be concerning.

Recalling "a flight attendant with a Ballymena accent" welcoming passengers to "Northern Ireland," Livingstone, "looked up from my book and fired off a dirty look (which) went fizzing past her averted head like a badly-aimed RPG." We won't ponder the significance of that choice of simile, for fear of being driven to a disturbing conclusion, but might wonder instead at the derisive reference, again, to an assumed Prod/Unionist accent.

I have a minibus load of nieces from Ballymena. Brilliant broad Ballymena accents, every one of them, that they are not the slightest bit coy about. But I hope they take care to speak sotto voce in the vicinity of Robin Livingstone. He might fire off only verbal missiles. But you never know how others within hearing range might opt to ape him.

"The dread words 'Northern Ireland' never pass my lips," he continued. " I physically wince every time I hear them."

Does he now? He must do an awful lot of wincing.

What's the name of the Assembly the Andytown News is mad keen to see up and running again? The Northern Ireland Assembly.

What Executive did politicians the 'paper admires serve in with distinction? The Northern Ireland Executive.

What police force has Robin Livingstone's preferred party pledged to endorse as soon as a few changes (NOT including a name-change) are in place? The Police Service of Northern Ireland.

Strange as it might seem to mainstream broadcasters, the attitudes aren't contradictory, but complementary.

It's because some Nationalists are uneasy at their own acceptance of Northern Ireland that they feel they have to make a show of rhetorical opposition to it.

It is because, in practical terms, they have endorsed the legitimacy of the Northern Ireland State that they denounce symbolic representations of it all the more loudly.

The campaign to obliterate Northern Ireland having halted, they turn to battle on who'll rule the roost within it. Communal hostility replaces the struggle for an all-Ireland. This is a pattern of play which corresponds ever more closely with the political mind-set of the Mad Mullahs of Orangeism.

It's in this context that militant Nationalism comes to be expressed in a desire to see blue noses ground into the dirt, even by Brits. In fact, especially by Brits.

It is now the main perspective of a growing tendency within Nationalism that a united Ireland can best and maybe only be brought about by England hammering the Prods until they see that there's no point persisting with, as Robin Livingstone would put it, Our Wee Pravince, and reconcile themselves instead to an all-Ireland arrangement.

It makes sense for such Nationalists to roar England on as they suppress Northern Ireland.

Except that it didn't work out like that at all, did it? Nor will it in the real world.

Wonderful result at Windsor on Wednesday. Pity the Free State let us down But shouldn't we be used to that, too, by now?

September 12, 2005
________________

This article appeared in the September 11, 2005 edition of the Sunday Journal.


P.S. How curious that Livingstone should take exception to a Ballymena accent, presumably on the basis of what it connotes about the speaker. Someone should introduce him to Liam Neesson - and watch him knock Livingstone's pan in!  

[Billys Boots]

George McCartney, not only the only recognised Irish Left Back playing in the Premiership, but one of the better ones at that level.

Stephen Kelly's played at both left and right-back for Birmingham, and has done reasonably well in both spots.  I wouldn't have McGeady on it either, or O'Shea in midfield - would replace with Hunt and Davis respectively.  Evans/Dunne at centre-halves - toss-up between Doyle and Healy off Keane.

[ziggysego]

Evil Genuis, why are you so desperate to prove that the vast majority of the Nationalist community wanted England to beat Northern Ireland? Granted there was a sizeable minority that hoped for that. These are usually the people that write letters to the press and phone in radio stations.* I would safely bet the majority wanted Northern Ireland to win.

To turn the tables, would 100% of the GAWA want RoI to win in a given match? I doubt it, I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to see RoI win, even if they don't activity support them.

[his holiness nb]

Does this make me a bigot? Yes or no?

YES!! Wait 'till I tell the OWC crowd this evening! 

They already know Ziggy, my comments have been mentioned  Perhaps their version of Fearon looking for confrontation, I dont know.

Seems the rest of them are fine so far.  No point letting one guy looking for a row put you off!

[nifan]

I dont know why some take it so personally if people want us to get beat. Doesnt bother me in the slightest - i just dont like when they start the tony fearon road of rationale.

of course many (most) of OWC fans will want to see ROI beaten in pretty much every game, for reasons varying from bigotry, disagreement over players to general local rivalries.
The same of course is reciprocated.

[ziggysego]

Never took you for a bigot nifan

[nifan]

I mean zig that various fans will have various reasons, rather than an individual fan will have *all* those reasons

As it stands im happy for the ROI to do well - for the in laws more than anything.

[Evil Genius]

It is well documented that a lot of owc in the big stand were wearing england tops that night. Figure that one out.

The following extracted from an article written in a Man.City fanzine by Sean Riley, also an England fan:

"The FA confirmed the allocation made available to them was a meagre 1,086 tickets. Only the top 700 cappers (those who had been to every England game home and away over the last 2 years) were guaranteed a ticket, with the balance of 300 or so being balloted between 10,000 members who had applied!
With my ticket safe, I set about getting some cheap flights with a few pals who were going out to the game, ticketless."

He later added:

"Back to footballing matters, and once we had got in to Windsor Park (and England fans were present all around the ground courtesy of forged tickets and paying over the odds etc), it was clear that tonight was not going to be a walk over."

He concluded with:

"The result was a bitter pill to swallow, but our experiences of our trip to Belfast will live long in the memory, it really was that special. A big thanks to all the Northern Ireland based Blues who came over to the City flag and wished us well, we hope to see you all in England soon! To all the Blues out there (including Wilky and Bev in our group) with England, how did you all end up getting tickets?! But that's City fans for you, they will always turn up and get in, no matter how high the odds are stacked against them doing so!"

There were also stories of England fans slipping £50 notes to a couple of turnstile operators - may or may not be true. And, of course, there were quite a few English people living in NI who got tickets legitimately (via sponsors, mates etc), either for themselves or for friends and family back in England who were travelling over.

[Evil Genius]

I wouldnt support either side over the other. I wouldnt support England because of the entire British Empires history, especially in Ireland.
NI because politically I dont think they should exist, in conjunction with my dislike of the history of the British empire in Ireland.

Does this make me a bigot? Yes or no?

No.

[Evil Genius]

George McCartney, not only the only recognised Irish Left Back playing in the Premiership, but one of the better ones at that level.

Stephen Kelly's played at both left and right-back for Birmingham, and has done reasonably well in both spots. 

Stephen Kelly has been a RB since his earliest days at Spurs. Brum only pick him at LB in an emergency. In truth, he's not really up to international football in his normal position, never mind out of position, and especially compared with Finnan or (Aaron) Hughes - both of whom have also filled in at LB from time to time.

Anyhow, McCartney is a better LB than the three of them (imo)

[ziggysego]

I mean zig that various fans will have various reasons, rather than an individual fan will have *all* those reasons

As it stands im happy for the ROI to do well - for the in laws more than anything.

I'm only winding you up 

[Evil Genius]

Evil Genuis, why are you so desperate to prove that the vast majority of the Nationalist community wanted England to beat Northern Ireland? Granted there was a sizeable minority that hoped for that. These are usually the people that write letters to the press and phone in radio stations.* I would safely bet the majority wanted Northern Ireland to win.

I'm not "desperate", I can't "prove" it, I never said it was the "vast majority", or even a simple "majority"; I was merely responding to some people on here who basically stated that Fearon was the only NI Nat cheering on England thast night - patently untrue. And as for their "right" to do so - of course they're entitled to, for whatever reason or none.

But by exactly the same freedom of expression as they must be accorded, I am entitled to make my feelings clear about them, at least when they support England out of nothing more bigotry and hatred, as expressed by the likes of Robin Livingstone. That's all.

To turn the tables, would 100% of the GAWA want RoI to win in a given match? I doubt it, I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to see RoI win, even if they don't activity support them.

If it were ROI v England, I've no doubt the reaction of the GAWA would run the whole range from some wanting their "fellow Brits" to spank the "Beggars", through some not minding either way, to some supporting their fellow Irishmen all the way, in the spirit of "Anyone But England!" There will undoubtedly will be some NI fans (even if a minority) who will support ROI simply they are a sort of "second team" - at least those NI fans who come from the Nationalist community!

I don't know, but perhaps it's a bit like e.g. asking a Tyrone fan who he'd support if Armagh were playing Dublin in an All-Ireland Final (or vice versa). Would it be his fellow Ulster county? Or whoever's playing his traditional rival? And would you get the same answer from a Down or a Derry supporter? Or one from Donaegal or Cavan? (Btw, I may, in my ignorance, have chosen a poor example, but I hope you get my point).

As for me, I actually have ambivalent feelings towards the ROI team, sometimes wanting to see them win, sometimes happy to see them lose, mostly not unduly bothered. This ambiguity stems from a variety of experiences down the years, some good, some not so good. But I can honestly say that I am overwhelmingly motivated by sporting, rather than political considerations and whatever the score, I do not "hate" the ROI team, nor their supporters, in whose company I have spent manys a good time. In the end, it's only a game, after all.

Like any large group of people, you can expect a wide range of opinions and emotions - unless you happen to think "Sure themmuns is all the same, anyway" (which I know you don't, btw)

[his holiness nb]

EG, Dublin are Tyrones traditional rival??

I'll make allowances for that as you aint a GAA man EG and dont claim to be, but that gave me a good old chuckle!!