Should a Taoiseach be tax compliant?

[Declan]

dear jason, what a load of crap. as a lifelong ffer i think bertie is a disgrace and should go.

yours etc M kingdom

Dear MK

Glad you think Bertie should go but is that in the national interest or in FF interest?

Jason

[Lone Shark]

Lets not forget that the people leading the chorus of condemnation were recently soundly rejected by the people at the polls.

The complete shitness of FG and Labour is the reason FF are still in power. They are so bad people (in general) are willing to accept a whiff of sulphur and medicore government rather than hand the controls over to complete incompetents.

What are you basing this on? They haven't been in power for years, so saying that is akin to dismissing a footballer as useless that you've never seen play.

They are unproven, inexperienced and naive without doubt. Incompetent? We have no idea.

[AZOffaly]

But's thats up to them to persuade us to vote for them LS, and they did sfa before the election to make them appear a viable, stable alternative. Maybe it was masterful tactics because whoever was in power was going to have to deal with a far different economic outlook, and everyone knew that before the election. Maybe Fine Gael and Labour deliberately appeared apathetic and lackadaisical so that they wouldn't win back power, hoping to win it next time around.

[magpie seanie]

LS - you may be right. It's just that in the election campaign they did nothing to inspire an electorate who wanted an alternative. If they're not capable of getting that right then...

I think the way Kenny reacted to Berties "money troubles" during the election (ignored largely and didn't put the boot in when it could have made a difference) and in recent times (attacking relentlessly - even when the Taoiseach was out of the country representing the State) make him look like a bit of a flip flopper. Maybe AZ is right - maybe they wanted another term to build up their strength so they could be stronger taking over.

[Lone Shark]

I ain't buying that at all.

Kenny was in a no win situation at the time - if he attacked Ahern, who let's not forget was spouting all his "I'm happy to go to the tribunal" garbage (this was before he ran to the áras when he realised he needed a quick election to avoid being summoned before the poll) people would have said that he was interfering with due process and wishing to dish dirt rather than discuss the issues.

Instead he waited until Bertie utterly hung himself with ridiculously contradictory stories and then put the boot in - as he should have in my opinion. Before the election, Bertie's guilt or innocence hung in the balance, whereas now, despite the absence of any verdict, all rational people admit it's beyond reasonable doubt.

Here's the thing though - how do you "inspire" the electorate? Nobody wants to listen to actual issues, they're just mundane. When you do talk about them, nobody will listen unless it's all good news - it's a farce. Ultimately all we vote on is who'll get Mammy the medical card she's not quite entitled to, or who'll get my 55 acres of floodland rezoned as residential.

We support political parties the way Scottish people "support" Celtic or Rangers in this country. I was as guilty of this as anyone up until a few years ago. We buy into what we want to hear, and justify our choices based on irrational "knowledge". This notion that FG are incompetent is just part of that.


The truth is that I actually think this is going to bite so hard that FF are going to get wiped next time around, and that's no good for anyone. If we voted in FG last time around, when the next election came along we would have had the choice between a FG/LAB government that had a track record to base our opinions on and a FF party that would have learned that the electorate will not stand for graft and theft of the nation's resources, so would have cleaned up their act. Instead we'll get the choice between a FF party that considers themselves above the law (and in their own eyes have a mandate for that) and a still unproven FG/Lab combo.

And to be honest, nobody in charge right now is going to make a blind bit of difference - anything we do is re-arranging deckchairs on the Titanic. The next bunch is going to have a lot more responsibility, and we're going to be short changed, one way or another.

[Zapatista]

FF managed to build such a fear in the electorate that many of them fell for it. FF tactic was - you are all up to your eyes in debt and if we are not in government you will lose your houses, jobs and not be able to send your children to college. This took comletely from the areas where it is plain to see they failed e.g. health care, crime and public services. No one thought to mention that this dangerous scenario is a result of the FF and PD mismanagement. As it turnsout FF got back in and this scenario is still a possibility with no improvement and a bleak future for health care, crime and public services.

[AZOffaly]

We support political parties the way Scottish people "support" Celtic or Rangers in this country. I was as guilty of this as anyone up until a few years ago. We buy into what we want to hear, and justify our choices based on irrational "knowledge". This notion that FG are incompetent is just part of that.

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I reject that completely, personally. Unless that is supposed to be a broad sweeping statement like 'some people like chocolate'.

I have voted for other parties in the past, and voted against FF party lines in referenda etc.

Taking the whole Bertie Ahern thing out of it, (I didn't think Inda was bad in that situation actually), I was more interested in what they were going to do. This silly contract that said very little was a load of hogwash in my opinion. Whenever there was a debate about issues, only Richard Bruton in my opinion came out with any credit. Everyone else's position seemed to be 'well, we're not Fianna Fail'. And Enda Kenny's performance in the leadership debate was the final nail in the election coffin for them.

[Lone Shark]

Obviously it was a generalisation and not meant to everyone. However I do think this (worryingly widely held) view that FG are incompetent is not based on facts, and as such the only plausible theory I can come up with is that people want to vote FF, so in order to clear their conscience when they see what Charlie, Albert and now Bertie have been up to is to blacken the opposition.

The problem is that if you spent the pre-election campaign talking about actual issues and the real differences between parties, it's just impossible have a real debate. Nobody can come out and say they're raising taxes, everyody is in a race to talk about extra spending in every sector, and it's clearly bullshit but no-one ever calls them on it. So we end up having a personality contest.

Incidentally - I didn't think Enda did that badly in the leaders debate. The media reported otherwise, and everyone else seems to think he got wiped, so I guess it was just me.

[Bogball XV]

And you see no problem with confidential correspondence being published in the press, leaks of documents from tribunals etc. I seriously doubt you would accept these or similar standards being applied to your own financial affairs. Is Bertie not entitled to the same equal and fair treatment as any other citizen.

Bertie Ahern made a declaration last May that his taxes were in order, the revenue have refused to agree to that statement by refusing to issue him with a tax clearance certificate.  On standing for office he knew that he would have to comply with the relevant SIPO legislation, if he wanted his tax affairs to remain private, he should not have stood.
On the other hand, I have not stood for election, nor will I, thus my tax affairs are only subject to public scrutiny if I am found guilty of evasion (over a certain amount, but I can't remember what it currently is).
In addition, Ahern's tax details would not have been with the tribunal if he had been able to come up with believable explanations as to the source of the many large lump lodgements (at least 4 in foreign currencies) into his and Celia Larkin's accounts.
You should also note that even Ahern himself has admitted that the leaks did not come from the tribunal.

On the whole other issue of political parties and their competence, I don't know and I'm certainly no Kenny fan, but would they do worse?  AZ maybe puts it best when he says that their incompetence prior to the last election was intentional as everyone could see what was coming.  The funny thing is, people talk about their incometence, but my God, we'd had ten years of FF and I'm not denying that a lot of good was done and that our lives are substantially different, but there were massive, massive problems in housing, education, health, transport, long term economic health etc.  As was stated at the time, FF got the message across that they would be a safe pair of hands for the economy, we'll see......

[magpie seanie]

Maybe I hadn't thought about the Kenny thing enough. LS is probably right on that. I do take exception at him hammering the Taoiseach when he was out of the country though. It could have and should have waited. And thats out of no love for or defence of Bertie. Maybe I'm old fashioned but bad an all as he is he is still currently our Taoiseach, representing this country abroad. Tear the head off him when he comes home by all means.

I'd also like to reject the Rangers/Celtic analogy - certainly from where I'm coming from. A large % of the time I don't vote the FF way. I am very angry with FG/Lab etc that I felt I had no option but to support FF in the last election (I didn't vote FF in the previous one). That's why I view them as incompetent. I might be wrong, but that's where I'm coming from.

It's a sorry state of affairs all round.

[Bogball XV]

This silly contract that said very little was a load of hogwash in my opinion.

That contract was absolutely naff - it might even have been the losing of the election?

[Tubberman]

The Secretary of State for Wales, Peter Hain is to resign to clear his name in the controversy over donations to his deputy leadership campaign.

The news came minutes after the Electoral Commission announced it was referring the affair to the Metropolitan Police.

Mr Hain said in a statement: "In view of the Electoral Commission decision today, I will be resigning to clear my name and I will be making a statement shortly."

What chances of Bertie every stepping down over his 'donations'. FF don't believe in standards and ethics - they're there for the money and power and will ride out the storm for as long as they can, no matter the circumstances.

[Lone Shark]

The South Africa thing is fair enough, though personally I just don't think the South Africans would really pass too much remarks on what's going on back in Ireland just because Bertie was around - and it was Bertie who escalated even further with his quite frankly base remarks in response while still in South Africa. It's a subtle one though, I can see both sides there.

Again, I'm not saying the Celtic/Rangers thing applies to anyone in particular, but I do think the phenomenon exists. However.....

I am very angry with FG/Lab etc that I felt I had no option but to support FF in the last election (I didn't vote FF in the previous one). That's why I view them as incompetent. I might be wrong...

You still don't say why you were angry - what policies did you disagree with? What were FF offering that FG/LAB didn't match? I'm not saying you didn't have reasons, but in the absence of you pointing out why, all I'm left with is that it was a "gut feeling" which was your mind's way of justifying voting for the party you "support".

By all means correct me with your basis for voting as you did, and I'll be the first to acknowledge it. I'm fairly well up on both sides policy manifestos and there were huge holes in both.

[magpie seanie]

Past experience. Better the devil you know. I know what FF do/have done and are likely to do - warts and all. I worry about what the others would do. I have faith in Cowen's ability. I suppose I saw and see Bertie as a lame duck and think Cowen will make a good Taoiseach. It's always somewhat of a gut feeling isn't it?

On the policy front I'll bow to your better knowledge. There were one or two FG policies that I disagreed with though a few FF ones I'm not happy with either. The fact that I don't remember many now tells you that wasn't the major issue. I wasn't angry over specific policies - I was more angry that as AZ said - they just resorted to the old FG stock of "not being FF". I'd hoped for a bit of vision and not a stupid contract stunt. There didn't seem to me to be any new ideas or energy about the alternative govt. Maybe that's my inbuilt prejudices at work but I'd feel I was never so willing to see the other side.

[Lone Shark]

Past experience. Better the devil you know. I know what FF do/have done and are likely to do - warts and all. I worry about what the others would do. I have faith in Cowen's ability. I suppose I saw and see Bertie as a lame duck and think Cowen will make a good Taoiseach. It's always somewhat of a gut feeling isn't it?

On the policy front I'll bow to your better knowledge. There were one or two FG policies that I disagreed with though a few FF ones I'm not happy with either. The fact that I don't remember many now tells you that wasn't the major issue. I wasn't angry over specific policies - I was more angry that as AZ said - they just resorted to the old FG stock of "not being FF". I'd hoped for a bit of vision and not a stupid contract stunt. There didn't seem to me to be any new ideas or energy about the alternative govt. Maybe that's my inbuilt prejudices at work but I'd feel I was never so willing to see the other side.

Unfortunately there is always somewhat of a gut feeling element - however I was the opposite. My gut feeling is that FF will never change their ways until we vote them out for their crimes, and the more we vote them back the more they read it as an endorsement of their corrupt methods and members.

I'm sorry, but your first line is all classic "supporter" stuff. I'm not saying you don't feel it genuinely, but none of it is logical. As for the vision, if FG came up with a wonderful policy document with several innovative ideas, FF would have most of them stolen before anybody bothered to report on it. Such is the nature of the Irish media.