A Different Ball Game - The Future of the GAA in Northern Ireland

[pintsofguinness]

Sorry, pints, but I can't be responsible for your perceptions (though what the height of my imaginary horse has to do with the argument, I have no idea). It's only possible to be condescending and patronising to someone you see as inferior. I don't see you as inferior, nor would I be arrogant enough to believe it about anyone, so from my point of view I can't be condescending to you or patronising you. The problem must be at your end. (How come nobody is ever on a high horse if they're losing the argument?).

Good one.

Anyway – are you or anyone going to put me right about the importance of flags and anthems and what they do for the GAA and how they promote the games and what we would be losing if we never bothered again playing a bad piece of music or flying an ould rag at the top of a pole and why there's more excitement about them here than about the neglect of rounders? OK, only joking about rounders.

I said above I feel no strong attachment to the flag or anthem before games but it doesn't mean we should get rid of them for jumped up silly PC reasons. 

[Pangurban]

The fact that so much publicity is generated by the fact that a sports minister attends a sporting event, says a lot about the distorted thinking which prevails in our society. Its his job folks, paid for by the taxpayers, which includes the G.A.A. fraternity. Rather than praising his BRAVE initiative, we should be asking him why it took so long. His calculated snub of the anthem, was understandable and in no way offensive. I find hardys belittling of flags and anthems understandable but offensive, as he lacks Mr.Poots justification. Hardy and Gnevin belong to the Ireland that has lost all sense of itself as a Nation with a history, culture and society worthy of respect. Therefore any symbols of these things are worthless and meaningless. Its all right for other Nations and sporting bodies to flout there symbols, buts thats not for the likes of us bogmen. The sad thing is that they have convinced me they are right. When i look at the state of the socirty we have created and the values we propound in Ireland today, and recognise that those values represent the view of the majority, then symbols truly are meaningless. Sure we might just as well fly the Union Jack at G.A.A. matches, and play The Queen for all the difference it would make.  Modern Irelands origins are the playing fields of Eton, its Capital the rugger playing garrison city of Limerick, and Hardy,Gnevin etc. its loyal citizens.

[Gnevin]

The fact that so much publicity is generated by the fact that a sports minister attends a sporting event, says a lot about the distorted thinking which prevails in our society. Its his job folks, paid for by the taxpayers, which includes the G.A.A. fraternity. Rather than praising his BRAVE initiative, we should be asking him why it took so long. His calculated snub of the anthem, was understandable and in no way offensive. I find hardys belittling of flags and anthems understandable but offensive, as he lacks Mr.Poots justification. Hardy and Gnevin belong to the Ireland that has lost all sense of itself as a Nation with a history, culture and society worthy of respect. Therefore any symbols of these things are worthless and meaningless. Its all right for other Nations and sporting bodies to flout there symbols, buts thats not for the likes of us bogmen. The sad thing is that they have convinced me they are right. When i look at the state of the socirty we have created and the values we propound in Ireland today, and recognise that those values represent the view of the majority, then symbols truly are meaningless. Sure we might just as well fly the Union Jack at G.A.A. matches, and play The Queen for all the difference it would make.  Modern Irelands origins are the playing fields of Eton, its Capital the rugger playing garrison city of Limerick, and Hardy,Gnevin etc. its loyal citizens.

My sense of Nation isn't defined solely by a flag at a GAA game ,maybe yours it and that's why your so against even the discussion about removing it.

Pangurban what county are you from?

[Hardy]

Pangurban - now there's patronisation (?) and condescension writ large. Thank you for your assessment of my character, but who the hell do you think you are to pronounce upon the extent of my respect for my nation and culture? And where did I suggest that it's only the Irish flag and anthem that I decline to revere and that it's OK for other nations to do it but not us?  You did not find that in anything I wrote, so why do you choose to distort what I said?

I don't need to stare in awed reverence at a rag on a pole or endure an atrociously bad piece of music in order to demonstrate my respect for my nation and culture. In fact I don't feel the need to demonstrate them at all. I prefer to live them. It's my belief that flags and anthems (of ALL nations) exist to emphasise our differences and to provide points of differentiation and even conflict. People seldom wave flags in front of their own people. It's no different to the psychology of the orange march in my mind - flags are for flaunting in front of our adversaries and I don't think the world would be any worse off if we lost all the anthems and flags tomorrow. And if you can contrive to be offended by my disrespect for a rag on a pole, I don't give a damn but I do wonder about which of us it is whose values need a review.

[Aristotle Flynn]

I agree. A very articulate post.

[Gnevin]

I agree. A very articulate post.

With Hardy?

[stephenite]

The fact that so much publicity is generated by the fact that a sports minister attends a sporting event, says a lot about the distorted thinking which prevails in our society. Its his job folks, paid for by the taxpayers, which includes the G.A.A. fraternity. Rather than praising his BRAVE initiative, we should be asking him why it took so long. His calculated snub of the anthem, was understandable and in no way offensive. I find hardys belittling of flags and anthems understandable but offensive, as he lacks Mr.Poots justification. Hardy and Gnevin belong to the Ireland that has lost all sense of itself as a Nation with a history, culture and society worthy of respect. Therefore any symbols of these things are worthless and meaningless. Its all right for other Nations and sporting bodies to flout there symbols, buts thats not for the likes of us bogmen. The sad thing is that they have convinced me they are right. When i look at the state of the socirty we have created and the values we propound in Ireland today, and recognise that those values represent the view of the majority, then symbols truly are meaningless. Sure we might just as well fly the Union Jack at G.A.A. matches, and play The Queen for all the difference it would make.  Modern Irelands origins are the playing fields of Eton, its Capital the rugger playing garrison city of Limerick, and Hardy,Gnevin etc. its loyal citizens.

Biggest load of rubbish I've read on here in a long time (and that's some going considering I've just read Peter Canavans article on the other board)

[Pangurban]

Hardy, i made no comment nor passed no judgement on your character. I referred to your mindset re. symbols and commented that it was representative of the majority in Ireland today. Nothing has any intrinsic value, why bother, anything perceived to be remotely divisive should be jettisoned. Political correctness is the order of the day. Its sad when a nations Flag and Anthem are included in those things which are divisive, but so be it. In corporate Ireland,where it is every Man for himself, there is no need for a a collective conscience. I concede your point, so lets all melt gracefully into that amorpheous collection of peoples which make up Europe and the world and abandon our silly pretensions of nationhood and cultural identity.

[thegael]

Pangurban,

I have never read something as insightful as your last few posts .I am so encouraged by them that we have some people like yourselves left .
We may differ on the inner circle but my  God man you are perceptive about how we have lost all sense of pride in our culture , Munster rugby is now their soul but thankfully not yours or mine.
It brings me back to Kavanagh and the provincial and the parochial.

[Gnevin]

Pangurban,

I have never read something as insightful as your last few posts .I am so encouraged by them that we have some people like yourselves left .
We may differ on the inner circle but my  God man you are perceptive about how we have lost all sense of pride in our culture , Munster rugby is now their soul but thankfully not yours or mine.
It brings me back to Kavanagh and the provincial and the parochial.

Munster Rugby what the f**k are you talking about seriously what?

[Gnevin]

Political correctness is the order of the day. Its sad when a nations Flag and Anthem are included in those things which are divisive,

Hense why the Union Jack and God save the queen where praised by Sinn Fein for being such  inclusive things. A of course was nothing  more inclusive than
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_South_Africa_1928-1994.svg

[stephenite]

Limerick city has always been a bastion of rugby, same as Sligo for soccer - this isn't something that has slowly crept up on us over the past 30 years and most certainly does not indicate a decay in our collective sense of cultural identity.

My own opinion is that the GAA and it's membership has done a terrible job in respecting the anthem and the flag at big inter county days and Junior B County finals, to the extent it would be better off that it was left out altogether. Nothing so embarrassing as standing for the anthem in Croke Park or Kiltimagh and the crowd erupts half way through it. There have been some half hearted attempts (Fogra - please respect the National Anthem etc) but there's not much you can do about it really when there are a handful/couple of hundered/couple of thousand (delete as applicable) ignorant gobshites with a few pints in them that insist on behaving like this, but this again is nothing new. Couple this with poor PA systems in most grounds or some whiny young wan warbling the anthem in the wrong key, I feel the whole charade cheapens the anthem terribly. Like the country nightclubs that used to play the anthem as the last song of the night, do they still do that?

[Zapatista]

Personally I think the Nationalism in the GAA is sickening. I only stand for the anthem and face the flag at games because it is easier to rather than listen to some hypocrite give out to me for not doing so. I also believe this sickening Nationalism is one of the reasons the GAA have been so successful and would not like to see it removed just yet. We must accept that many of the GAA's current support is strongly in favour of the games for the same reason many oppose the games.

[Hardy]

Hardy, i made no comment nor passed no judgement on your character. I referred to your mindset re. symbols and commented that it was representative of the majority in Ireland today. Nothing has any intrinsic value, why bother, anything perceived to be remotely divisive should be jettisoned. Political correctness is the order of the day. Its sad when a nations Flag and Anthem are included in those things which are divisive, but so be it. In corporate Ireland,where it is every Man for himself, there is no need for a a collective conscience. I concede your point, so lets all melt gracefully into that amorpheous collection of peoples which make up Europe and the world and abandon our silly pretensions of nationhood and cultural identity.

There you go again, patrtonising me and filtering my statements through your distortion kit until they look like what you want to believe, rather than what I said. Thus my disdain for flag-waving as a proxy for respect gets bent into "nothing has any intrinsic value". My suggestion that the world might be a  better place without people waving their particular flag in front of whomever they think it will most annoy warps, in the Pangurban manual of interpretation, into "political correctness is the order of the day".

If you've read a selection of my posts here for more than ten years, you'll have a fair idea of my opinions on subjects such as political correctness, the global consumer culture, the gradual erosion of cultural differences and, not least, the part the GAA has to play in the fight against these influences. Yet you choose to depict me as an example of "corporate Ireland,where it is every Man for himself", where  "there is no need for a collective conscience" because I state that I have no need to revere a flag or a tune as an expression of my cultural identity. Why?

[thejuice]

Unlike Hardy, I love our flag and anthem, this topic is something close to my heart as I would try to promote social inclusion as much as I can, and I am very proud of my past, my culture and heritage. Part of me says, the magic word in social inclusion is tolerance, Unionists should tolerate Nationalist cultural difference and vice versa.

Another part of me thinks, is it right for a sporting organisation to promote a political viewpoint? The idea of a United Ireland is very much a Nationalist ideal.

We know that (as much as we hate to admit it), Northern Ireland is part of the UK, Amhrain Na bhFiann is the anthem of the ROI, the tri-colour is the flag of the ROI, and not Northern Ireland. Unionists will undoubtedly feel offended by the playing of the Anthem,  just as I am when people include All of Ireland in the UK,  as it fails to acknowledge the existence of Northern Ireland.

Much like the Aims of the GAA, (32-county part) it shuns the idea of an existence of a country they are proud of. They perhaps wonder why the people who want them to accept or tolerate the Flag and Anthem, wont tolerate Unionist culture, ie parades etc.......(Im not equating GAA with OO, Im trying to state a possible Unionist point of view)

I have friends who, are from a Unionist background, not Orange Order but would be sooner found in Winsor Park than at a McKenna cup match. I have asked them about the GAA, and they kinda shrugged and gave a kinda indefinate answer. while one of them was excited about Donegal winning the league last year, (he's from Antrim but has reletives in Donegal). The other only spoke to me a bout GAA when the Gerard Cavlan thing happened.

Part of it, I reckon comes from within the Unionist community. There may be a stigma attached to someone who might be seen attending GAA matches. Another is perhaps they simply dont like/trust those on the other side. Not yet anyway.

But for me, my mind isnt made up yet. Do we wait for them to accept us as we are, or do we make a compromise and swallow our pride for the sake of social inclusion?