Frank McGuigan on grants

[bennydorano]

The point is that there is not a big enough population to support a (semi)professional game) that could be played by all counties and we are now going down road where we do not know thw destination . 

Funny, I think a semi-pro even FT pro game would be feasible. We are a totally different animal to rugby and soccer that have relative tiny fan bases, we also seem to have more clout when it comes to media deals.  It would fundamentally change the GAA (i.e ruin it) but it could easily be done IMO.

[Zulu]

This all been done before but many on here claimed they were against these grants on the basis they were elitist, pay for play and against the rules. Considering the grants are actually for all IC players, not from GAA coffers and above board I find it incredible that none of the anti-grant supporters here seem willing to accept that they might have initially over reacted.
                     The argument seems to be if it's under the table payments, while it's not ok we won't kick up a fuss, however above board payments by the govt. are not on because they are elitist, pay for play, against the rules, and the dreaded thin edge of the wedge.

Have to agree with you there Hardy - individuals can't be classed as an organisation and be compared to the government.

Surely groups of GAA members paying players to play is closer to a professional GAA than the govt. giving them grants.

[Hardy]

Apologies Hardy, i'm not up to speed on this ; can you explain your "enshrining professionalism in the rules" comment?

Do you mean that there will be an actual rule change, or that a de-facto re-interpretation of the rules will take effect if the grants are accepted?

I was a bit loose in my terminology. What I meant was, I suppose, officially approving professionalism. It may or may not be that a rule change will be required. In my opinion, the grants contravene the rule on amateurism, but I woldn't be surprised if some of the loophole experts in the association find a way to say that they don't. A lot will depend on what the DRA says, though I fear that they may have no option but to avoid the "appalling vista" situation of finding the GAA's leadership in contravention of the rules.

All I'd ask for is that the issue be put to the membership.

[orangeman]

Zulu - -can't agree with you - not all clubs have the same amount of resources at their disposal - eg somewhere in this board it was said that a certain Building Suppliers firm will be paying for an outside manager this year - not all clubs have that resource available to them -

Same thing when it comes to counties - how many counties have the same resources as Dublin ? Tyrone ?

Would Leitrim be able to compete ? Never.

So therefore individuals can never be on the same level or comparable to the government.

[ONeill]

Hardy, my Uncle Bert was a fine cyclist. He represented Ireland at various international championships for the guts of 15 years. Most year, the govn gave him a grant to cover expenses for the simple reason had he was considered 'elite' in his chosen sport. He was also a carpenter and didn't make a pile.

So, was he professional all along?

[orangeman]

I don't think Frank would be too worried about getting a suspension !

But I agree let's have a vote on it among the membership - sort it out that way - once and for all - cos it's getting boring on this board - it's all we ever seem to talk about !  

[Zulu]

Zulu - -can't agree with you - not all clubs have the same amount of resources at their disposal - eg somewhere in this board it was said that a certain Building Suppliers firm will be paying for an outside manager this year - not all clubs have that resource available to them -

Same thing when it comes to counties - how many counties have the same resources as Dublin ? Tyrone ?

Would Leitrim be able to compete ? Never.

I agree 100% Orangeman that is why I think it is great that a Leitrim hurler is getting some few bob and not just the big players in the big counties. Now maybe some wealthy businessmen in certain counties are willing to pay some players to devote themselves to full time training but it is in that system that real elitism exists not in this grant scheme.

[ONeill]

cos it's getting boring on this board - it's all we ever seem to talk about !  :

You're right. I don't think anyone has changed anyone's mind over the months!

[Zulu]

Well then it should be put on the clar and dealt with properly, rather than the underhand matter that it is at present. Roll on congress, I believe there are quite a few counties with motions to put an end to the grants before they begin.

I'd have no problem with that but I hope it isn't full of scaremongering arguments based on 'thin edge of the wedge prophecies'. If the debate is reasoned and not emotional and if people vote on what is best for the GAA and not based on their opinion of the GPA then great, but I'd fear that cries of imminent destruction would appeal to the natural conservatism of many GAA 'committee men', not to mention the opportunity to put the GPA back in their box.

[Carmen Stateside]

cos it's getting boring on this board - it's all we ever seem to talk about !  :

You're right. I don't think anyone has changed anyone's mind over the months!

Franks changed mine! Looking for boots at the minute, going to give the football a go here in New York next year  $$$

[Hardy]

Hardy, my Uncle Bert was a fine cyclist. He represented Ireland at various international championships for the guts of 15 years. Most year, the govn gave him a grant to cover expenses for the simple reason had he was considered 'elite' in his chosen sport. He was also a carpenter and didn't make a pile.

So, was he professional all along?

Of course not. The answer is in your post. You said he got EXPENSES from the government. GAA players get expenses from the GAA.

[Hardy]

I'd have no problem with that but I hope it isn't full of scaremongering arguments based on 'thin edge of the wedge prophecies'.

Unfortunately, the 'thin end of the wedge' is the very issue here and it is far from scaremongering. Do you seriously believe that the GPA will sit back now and desist from ther pay for play agenda on the basis of having "achieved" payments of about 2K per annum? WHat they and everyone else knows is that their real achievement has been the acceptance of the pay for play principle. From this point forward, if this goes ahead, the argument is no longer about whether players can get paid. It's just about how much.

[ONeill]

Hardy, my Uncle Bert was a fine cyclist. He represented Ireland at various international championships for the guts of 15 years. Most year, the govn gave him a grant to cover expenses for the simple reason had he was considered 'elite' in his chosen sport. He was also a carpenter and didn't make a pile.

So, was he professional all along?

Of course not. The answer is in your post. You said he got EXPENSES from the government. GAA players get expenses from the GAA.

But his sponsor covered his expenses (as Club Tyrone does for Tyrone county teams). The govn gave him this because he was cycling at the highest level possible for his sport as an amateur and he knew he was entitled to this from the sports council. I must tell him he was actually a pro according to some. For, as you say, Govn grants = pay for play.

[Zulu]

WHat they and everyone else knows is that their real achievement has been the acceptance of the pay for play principle.

That's only your opinion Hardy not a fact, the government are paying a grant, the GPA have accepted that the GAA have no responsibility to pay this in the event of the govt. stopping the grant. And if the GAA were to ever pay players directly for playing then a rule change would be required. Professionalism, where the GAA pay it's players, can only occur if the GAA votes for it.

From this point forward, if this goes ahead, the argument is no longer about whether players can get paid. It's just about how much.

No, it's about who pays them.

[ONeill]

To ridicule Mark Conway and Donal McAnallen because they either did not speak in public on such issues (maybe some uppity "journalist" didn't feel worth it to speed-dial them) or struggled to be able to deal with seeing such offenders be punished - remember that one certain university in Ulster has been for many years on the nailing list of every other Sigerson cup team for fragrant breaches but none of them has been able to dig up any proof - is nothing short of pathetic.

I'm sure mark and Donal are well able to make a point in the media without being contacted. My point was that people DID keep quiet on issues that were  "Pay for Play" in its purest form. We're talking about players earning up to $15'000 for a few games with little or no training involved and nowhere near Championship efforts. To claim now that Rule 11 has finally been breached simply stinks of hypocrisy. Just because it was under the table and immeasurable, should it have been allowed to continue? That's why I feel McAnallan and Conway haven't a leg to stand on. McAnallan claimed that he 'lost interest in doing the voluntary work if the sport ceases to be for sport's sake.' Donal knows full well the extent of pay-for-play that he was attempting to address in all his time as secretary of the HE council. Most on here would not be aware of it. He then attempted to explain away the grant to students as acceptable as they're not in employment/linked to education and it's only the elite who gets them. How on earth is that justification? That's even more elitist.

I admire McAnallan and Conway's philosophy. But I still hold the view that their recent soundbites are head-in-the-sand hypocritical.