Time to scrap the back door?

[jodyb]

I've said it before carnaross, even though it sounds good in theory, geography will stifle it. People will simply not travel the length and breadth of the country for that type of fare! Tyrone/Derry or Armagh/Tyrone on the other hand will always be well attended and, as orangeman says, have a terrific atmoshere.

Absolutely the provicial system is fundamentallly flawed in terms of the inequities it throws up, but the intensity of ulster chamoinship games is still there. I dont care what anybody says, Tyrone / Monaghan this year, for example, was exciting right up to the last minute, for neutral and partisan alike. (imho)

[deiseach]

The thread is titled "Time to scrap the back door?", a straightforward yes/no question. Yet the question asked is "Restructure the back door system" which, quite apart from not being a question, is a very different proposition to the one in the title.

I'll pass.

[darbyo]

I've said it before carnaross, even though it sounds good in theory, geography will stifle it. People will simply not travel the length and breadth of the country for that type of fare! Tyrone/Derry or Armagh/Tyrone on the other hand will always be well attended and, as orangeman says, have a terrific atmoshere.

I agree, but if it started on a geographic basis that would be a step in the right direction. Divide the country in two, North and South - 4 groups in each section, so carnaross' suggested system could be still used, and Tipp V Armagh or Donegal V Waterford would be avoided.

[orangeman]

The provincial championships are very exciting bar Munster - but look at Leinster hurling - it's rubbish altogether but it has stayed the same.

[Snowed Under]

Money aside, I don't think the back door should be scrapped. It gives most teams a second chance for a bite of the an apple. Only think that would be to be worked out, is how to give Provincial Winners a second. It's a bit unfair that they are disadvantaged like this.

That is a laughable comment; by that reckoning should every county be expected to get two bites at the apple; even provincial winners who eventually get beaten in the AIF. 

[darbyo]

I wouldn't say they are very exciting, like any sports competition they can be a mixed bag. But familiarity (from players and supporters), the backdoor and poor matches in recent years means that excitement levels are low. I can't think of any real stand out matches in next years championship first rounds, yet if you had 8 groups based on a North/South open draw we could be looking forward to matches like Galway V Dublin, Kerry V Laois, Meath V Monaghan or Mayo V Tyrone. Now that's mouthwatering stuff, as for the hurling, that should be an open draw end of. The Munster championship is doing more harm than good to hurling.

[orangeman]

people won't travel - they'll go to local venues but won't go long distances - look at last night in Croke Park fir instance.

[darbyo]

In fairness there is no comparison between the Railway cup and the Championship. And of the sample games that I mentioned Gal V Dub would get 35000 - 83000 depending where it's played. If the games are played in a neutral venue then most games would involve a fairly reasonably journey and of the games involving the top teams 20000 - 50000 crowds could be anticipated.

[Rossfan]

Two thoughts on this one -
1- do all the various people in the GAA who talk about " too many inter Co games" not realise the Inter Co (esp Championship) is the shop window and Revenue earner for the GAA? Also restricting Inter Co to say 2 months in Spring and then 3 months in Summer/Autumn is virtually handing the airwaves and Media over to our rivals in Soccer/Rugby.
2 - Is it time to consider a 3 tier football championship?
     The weakest teams this year ( like it or hate it) were hived off to the TM Cup and it did make for a better Qualifier Competition. However there were still 9 or 10 teams in the Qualifiers who had no realsitic chance of even making the Qtr Finals never mind winning Sam - so in effect all they were doing was fulfilling fixtures while moaning about the effect on Culb games.
So without changing the knock out method with second chance as at present how about -

Play Prov Championships as at present as these will not be done away with for at least 25 years.
Then TIER ONE (Sam) to consist of eight Provincial finalists and the next best 8 rated teams based on previous years Championship. The latter 8 to play Round 1;4 winners play losing Finalists in Round 2 then Quarter Finals etc .(After year 1 the previous year's tier 2 winners would be included + 7 next best teams)
TIER TWO- (Jimmy Murray Cup )the next 8 best teams based on previous year's Championship (year 2 on Tier 3 winners from previous year + 7 next best). Qurter Finals etc.
TIER THREE - the rest ( TM Cup).
Play the Tier 2 and Tier 3 Finals as a double header and give them a weekend all to themselves.

This would make for 3 competitive championships and give the weaker Counties a winnable championship to play in and a natural progression up the ranks for a promising team.
People will moan about not giving Counties a chance etc etc but in 7 years of Qualifiers Leitrim despite some exciting games have won NO GAME. Would they not be better aiming at a Crooke Park Final in a winnable competition?
Say if year one of my system you had Carlow v Antrim and Louth v Cavan in the two "little" All Ireland Finals would Croke Park not be filled?

[Over the Bar]

Scrap the league, make the Provincial championships a league system. Then make the AI Chmapionships a 32 team open draw with no second chance..

[carnaross]

I've said it before carnaross, even though it sounds good in theory, geography will stifle it. People will simply not travel the length and breadth of the country for that type of fare! Tyrone/Derry or Armagh/Tyrone on the other hand will always be well attended and, as orangeman says, have a terrific atmoshere.

I agree, but if it started on a geographic basis that would be a step in the right direction. Divide the country in two, North and South - 4 groups in each section, so carnaross' suggested system could be still used, and Tipp V Armagh or Donegal V Waterford would be avoided.

North and South groups! That'll start a row, ah here goes I'll start it myself - North = Donegal, Derry, Antrim, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Monaghan, Down, Armagh, Sligo, Mayo, Leitrim, Cavan, Louth, Longford, Meath and Roscommon. South = Kerry, Cork, Waterford, Wexford, Kilkenny/London, Limerick, Carlow, Tipperary, Clare, Laois, Wicklow, Kildare, Offaly, Westmeath, Galway and Dublin. No place for New York in this though!
To make such acountry-wide division and have four meaningful groups, you'd still have to seed four teams (another row here) Donegal, Tyrone, Derry and Meath from the North and from the South, Kerry, Cork, Dublin and Laois (IMO).

Thoughts?

[darbyo]

Sounds ok to me, an open draw like you originally posted is the ideal situation but like some other posters pointed out traveling distance would make some games complete wash outs. So having 4 southern groups and 4 northern groups would negate this to a certain degree.
You also have plenty of opportunity for local rivalries to pop up regularly and some new mouthwatering clashes to add spice to the championship.

[J70]

I've said it before carnaross, even though it sounds good in theory, geography will stifle it. People will simply not travel the length and breadth of the country for that type of fare! Tyrone/Derry or Armagh/Tyrone on the other hand will always be well attended and, as orangeman says, have a terrific atmoshere.

I agree, but if it started on a geographic basis that would be a step in the right direction. Divide the country in two, North and South - 4 groups in each section, so carnaross' suggested system could be still used, and Tipp V Armagh or Donegal V Waterford would be avoided.

North and South groups! That'll start a row, ah here goes I'll start it myself - North = Donegal, Derry, Antrim, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Monaghan, Down, Armagh, Sligo, Mayo, Leitrim, Cavan, Louth, Longford, Meath and Roscommon. South = Kerry, Cork, Waterford, Wexford, Kilkenny/London, Limerick, Carlow, Tipperary, Clare, Laois, Wicklow, Kildare, Offaly, Westmeath, Galway and Dublin. No place for New York in this though!
To make such acountry-wide division and have four meaningful groups, you'd still have to seed four teams (another row here) Donegal, Tyrone, Derry and Meath from the North and from the South, Kerry, Cork, Dublin and Laois (IMO).

Thoughts?

I think any seeded team who ended up with Armagh or Mayo in their group as unseeded teams wouldn't be too happy!

[darbyo]

Well the north would always be the stronger section but with counties like Galway, Kildare & Offaly there would be tough groups in the South as well some years. The fact of the matter is that there is no faultless system when we're trying to develop weaker counties while still trying to offer the stronger ones genuine competition. But I think the one carnaross has suggested isn't bad and worth a try.

[DUBSFORSAM1]

Maybe I am being stupid and naive here but why do I find so many people complaining about the "weaker counties" taking up space etc and that they shouldn't be in the AI series or given a 2nd chance or given the oppurtunity to win a provincial title....

We all saw this year the sheer delight and pride in Sligo brought about by winning a provincial title...this would not have happened IMHO without the backdoor system that has helped them and the likes of Fermanagh/Longford/Derry etc get an awful lot more games than they would usually have had...
Imagine how the guys in Westmeath/Laois etc felt when they won a provincial title or how Fermanagh/Roscommon/Leitrim/Longford players etc would feel if they won a provincial final....

The smaller counties deserve their day in the sun and to be treated like all other counties - isn't that supposed to be the ethos of the GAA??