ARMAGH arrests in Donegal drugs swoop

[Main Street]

So where do they put their cups and clothes ?

[Donagh]

So where do they put their cups and clothes ?

In different ones I assume.

[nifan]

Why is it the state's business to decide what individuals may ingest into their own bodies?

It has to be handled to some degree, can you imagine if crack was legel - it hasa  major knock on effect on society.

[J70]

Why did you ignore the rest of my answer?

I didn't ignore it just didn't think it that relevant. If cannibals was fully legalised then "organized crime" would be out of the equation, besides as I said, many people order seeds from the Internet and grow their own in cupboard and wardrobes. In the south these people can be criminalised for doing so.

So its irrelevant that by buying drugs on the black market that you are supporting organized crime?

I'm not talking about whether or not cannabis should be legalized. That is a separate issue. (Personally, I think it should be available for medicinal purposes at least).

[J70]

Alcohol and tobacco smoking are legal and can be attained without the involvement of organized crime. Cannabis ... cannot.

Isn't that the problem, J70? Cart and horse face-about. The only reason organised crime is involved is because it has been decided (arbitrarily, as far as I can see) that some drugs are legal and others are not. Thus the stroke of a politician's pen creates a huge illegal industry and misery, murder and mayhem for millions, for no sane rational reason that I can discern.

Why is it the state's business to decide what individuals may ingest into their own bodies? And even if we concede that principle, what is the rational basis for declaring cannabis illegal and alcohol and tobacco legal? It can't be based on health considerations anyway.

I don't disagree with anything you say.

[Donagh]

Why did you ignore the rest of my answer?

I didn't ignore it just didn't think it that relevant. If cannibals was fully legalised then "organized crime" would be out of the equation, besides as I said, many people order seeds from the Internet and grow their own in cupboard and wardrobes. In the south these people can be criminalised for doing so.

So its irrelevant that by buying drugs on the black market that you are supporting organized crime?

I'm not talking about whether or not cannabis should be legalized. That is a separate issue. (Personally, I think it should be available for medicinal purposes at least).

If there's a market for it, someone will supply the market, whether it's "organized" or not is beside the point. I find it hypocritical in the extreme for governments to be taking income from alcohol and tobacco whilst criminalising cannabis users, or users of any other drug for that matter. Alcohol is the biggest problem in our society and it's laughable to watch the media and police try to make out that capturing a few grands worth of weed is some major step along the way to saving society from the "organized criminals".

[J70]

Why did you ignore the rest of my answer?

I didn't ignore it just didn't think it that relevant. If cannibals was fully legalised then "organized crime" would be out of the equation, besides as I said, many people order seeds from the Internet and grow their own in cupboard and wardrobes. In the south these people can be criminalised for doing so.

So its irrelevant that by buying drugs on the black market that you are supporting organized crime?

I'm not talking about whether or not cannabis should be legalized. That is a separate issue. (Personally, I think it should be available for medicinal purposes at least).

If there's a market for it, someone will supply the market, whether it's "organized" or not is beside the point. I find it hypocritical in the extreme for governments to be taking income from alcohol and tobacco whilst criminalising cannabis users, or users of any other drug for that matter. Alcohol is the biggest problem in our society and it's laughable to watch the media and police try to make out that capturing a few grands worth of weed is some major step along the way to saving society from the "organized criminals".

Whatever about the media hyping up the broader significance of this bust, the government does not exist apart from the people. If enough people want cannabis legalized, the channels are there to try and get the laws changed. Alcohol abuse is a problem all right, but where alcohol differs from cannabis or tobacco is that no level of consumption of the latter pair is healthy. You can have a regular glass of wine or beer with no ill effects. You can't say the same for a few joints or fags.

[Donagh]

Why did you ignore the rest of my answer?

I didn't ignore it just didn't think it that relevant. If cannibals was fully legalised then "organized crime" would be out of the equation, besides as I said, many people order seeds from the Internet and grow their own in cupboard and wardrobes. In the south these people can be criminalised for doing so.

So its irrelevant that by buying drugs on the black market that you are supporting organized crime?

I'm not talking about whether or not cannabis should be legalized. That is a separate issue. (Personally, I think it should be available for medicinal purposes at least).

If there's a market for it, someone will supply the market, whether it's "organized" or not is beside the point. I find it hypocritical in the extreme for governments to be taking income from alcohol and tobacco whilst criminalising cannabis users, or users of any other drug for that matter. Alcohol is the biggest problem in our society and it's laughable to watch the media and police try to make out that capturing a few grands worth of weed is some major step along the way to saving society from the "organized criminals".

Whatever about the media hyping up the broader significance of this bust, the government does not exist apart from the people. If enough people want cannabis legalized, the channels are there to try and get the laws changed. Alcohol abuse is a problem all right, but where alcohol differs from cannabis or tobacco is that no level of consumption of the latter pair is healthy. You can have a regular glass of wine or beer with no ill effects. You can't say the same for a few joints or fags.

You may be able to but the A&E departments of our hospitals will show you that many more cannot. I doubt very much whether there is such a thing a cannabis addict but if there is they would not be wrecking families and lives to anywhere near the same extent as alcoholics.

[pintsofguinness]

J70, the report says the haul came from Amsterdam where the stuff is grown legally, not by cartels in Mexico or Columbia.

So?

So, we're hardly talking about crime on the Pablo Escobar scale. I've seen people die and families ripped apart by alcohol abuse, limbs amputated through tobacco but the worst I ever seen from cannabis abuse is someone taking a mild 'whitey' that lasts ten minutes. The sate is a pretty fcuked up place when people are criminalised for smoking a little weed.

You can't compare the three donagh, more people smoke and drink than smoke canabis on a regular basis. 


Just a quick google and I found this
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1237679,00.html

[J70]

Why did you ignore the rest of my answer?

I didn't ignore it just didn't think it that relevant. If cannibals was fully legalised then "organized crime" would be out of the equation, besides as I said, many people order seeds from the Internet and grow their own in cupboard and wardrobes. In the south these people can be criminalised for doing so.

So its irrelevant that by buying drugs on the black market that you are supporting organized crime?

I'm not talking about whether or not cannabis should be legalized. That is a separate issue. (Personally, I think it should be available for medicinal purposes at least).

If there's a market for it, someone will supply the market, whether it's "organized" or not is beside the point. I find it hypocritical in the extreme for governments to be taking income from alcohol and tobacco whilst criminalising cannabis users, or users of any other drug for that matter. Alcohol is the biggest problem in our society and it's laughable to watch the media and police try to make out that capturing a few grands worth of weed is some major step along the way to saving society from the "organized criminals".

Whatever about the media hyping up the broader significance of this bust, the government does not exist apart from the people. If enough people want cannabis legalized, the channels are there to try and get the laws changed. Alcohol abuse is a problem all right, but where alcohol differs from cannabis or tobacco is that no level of consumption of the latter pair is healthy. You can have a regular glass of wine or beer with no ill effects. You can't say the same for a few joints or fags.

You may be able to but the A&E departments of our hospitals will show you that many more cannot. I doubt very much whether there is such a thing a cannabis addict but if there is they would not be wrecking families and lives to anywhere near the same extent as alcoholics.

No one goes to A&E after one or two drinks, unless they're alergic to alcohol or they're on some kind of medication that cannot be mixed with alcohol or whatever. My point is that you can drink sensibly and in moderation without any ill effects. You cannot do that with tobacco or cannabis. Binging and alcoholism is a separate issue.

[Donagh]

No one goes to A&E after one or two drinks, unless they're alergic to alcohol or they're on some kind of medication that cannot be mixed with alcohol or whatever. My point is that you can drink sensibly and in moderation without any ill effects. You cannot do that with tobacco or cannabis. Binging and alcoholism is a separate issue.

It's not a separate issue - my point is that many people (through no fault of their own) cannot drink sensibly or in moderation and that leads to all sorts of heartbreak. Abusing or binging on cannabis typically sends one to sleep (at the worst).

[pintsofguinness]

You doing a sammyg donagh?

[J70]

No one goes to A&E after one or two drinks, unless they're alergic to alcohol or they're on some kind of medication that cannot be mixed with alcohol or whatever. My point is that you can drink sensibly and in moderation without any ill effects. You cannot do that with tobacco or cannabis. Binging and alcoholism is a separate issue.

It's not a separate issue - my point is that many people (through no fault of their own) cannot drink sensibly or in moderation and that leads to all sorts of heartbreak. Abusing or binging on cannabis typically sends one to sleep (at the worst).

Some cannot drink sensibly, true, although one generally doesn't go from never having had a drink straight to becoming a raging alcoholic. The vast majority of people can handle it though, even if we all overdo it or overdid it on the odd occasion, such as in college or wherever. Abuse of cannabis does quite a bit more than sending one to sleep, especially as it is a serious carcinogen, causes respiratory illnesses and memory problems and various other problems.
Again though, my objection isn't really to legalizing it. If people want to f**k themselves up, I don't give a crap, as long as they're not affecting others. But as it stands, by buying it, you are supporting the criminal gang networks and breaking the law.

[Hardy]

Why is it the state's business to decide what individuals may ingest into their own bodies?

It has to be handled to some degree, can you imagine if crack was legel - it hasa  major knock on effect on society.

I don't disagree. I haven't fully made up my mind and I'm aware of the dangers of legalisation, but I lean towards this argument:

Isn't the major part of that major knock on effect you mention down to the fact that it's illegal? Isn't it the crime generated by the banning of these substances that is their biggest effect on society. The only other effects are on individuals themselves. If people choose to put dangerous substances in their systems, I don't see that society has any business in the process other than to warn them that it's a very dangerous thing to do,  advise them of the harmful effects and do what it can to treat those effects in those who don't have the sense not to do it. Society does all of these things already, but in addition, it criminalises them. What good does that do? Maybe it has something of a deterrent effect, but apart from that it seems to me to do an awful lot of harm.

As you say, it has to be handled to some degree. I'd suggest that placing the regulation of its supply in the hands of organised crime is not a very clever way of handling it. If it was legally available from licensed suppliers (as those other very dangerous drugs, alcohol and tobacco are), and consequently also regulated as regards purity, etc. then surely society would be in a better position to handle it and could deter the use of the substance by educational programmes and treat its effects at a fraction of the cost, both monetary and social, of fighting a full scale war against organised crime.

If I had a child in danger of falling foul of addiction, I'd be very disappointed, but I'd be less terrified if at least what he was buying was of known provenance, he didn't have to meet criminals in dark alleys to buy it and he didn't have the extra danger of going to jail for it.

I would have thought we'd have learned a lesson from the experience of alcohol prohibition in the USA, which was the biggest boost in history to the development of organised crime and eventually had to be abandoned because it just didn't work on so many levels.

[stephenite]

Exactly Hardy - I think some people are failing to distinguish between cannabis and other legal drugs. They perhaps do not see cannabis in the same light as alcohol and tobacco. Society in general has told us for generations that alcohol and tobacco is acceptable whereas cannabis has been demonised by same society for the same lenth of time, society is wrong in this instance.

Stew - you asked why we don't also legalize cocaine? Cocaine is a highly addictive drug, cannabis is not. There is a huge difference between legalizing a drug that has side effects that are less disruptive than alcohol and tobacco, and legalizing one that has been proven to be far worse. In fact I'd put cocaine alongside tobacco in it's capacity to get people 'hooked'

I don't mind if cannabis stays banned, but can we have less of the hypocrisy and ban tobacco and alcohol also?