More sectarianism in Irish League Football

[MW]

That was exactly the type of post I've been talking about for the last few pages.

[his holiness nb]

You should start by saying why you referred to me,  or me and Tony hawks, as "all the NI soccer contingent".

You are obviously not "all the Ni soccer contingent" I meant all the contributors to this thread from the NI Soccer community.

You could answer this: Where in the fame of good feck did I "jump on the GAA" ? And where did I "take Darren's word for it" instead of listening what people had to say? (Did Tony hawks either I wonder?)

I was referring to the Darren Graham thread when the NI soccer crowd jumped to attack the GAA with glee while we (the GAA fans) all condemned what happened.
I dont believe I mentioned you here.

Regarding "taking Darrens word for it" again you have misread the post.
I said "everyone on here" as in the GAA regulars took his word for it. Again you werent mentioned in that phrase at all (stop being so self important   )
It was to emphasize the point that we werent instintively inclined to presume a statement like Darrens would be made for any other
reason that to tell the truth.

I just think the differences in reaction from both sides on these two similar accusations are telling.

And this: Where exactly did I make this "blind denial", or indeed any sort of denial?

You posted reports from the alleged "guilty party" (its not unusual to plead not guilty   ) denying this happened and said you would be inclined to believe them rather than Jeffreys.
I've already said you didnt say that it "didnt happen" more so suggested it.
Just in case the facts turned out to prove you wrong I would guess.

But I suppose my answers are inane crap eh ?

[MW]

MW, why would he make it up if he didnt hear it?

Otherwise what are you getting at?

I'm not "getting at" anything. I wasn't there. Did you read those links?

However what I will say about Jeffrey is that he's a maniacal publicity whore whose common sense such as it is appears to go out the window on matchday. And am told he gets a fair amount of personal abuse from some in the Ballymena support. If it came down to believing him or the various Ballymena fans of my acquaintance, I know who I'd believe about what actually happened..


Wow, I am seeing a pattern here. Any time anyone says anything negative about an IFA club they get lambasted and the personal abuse toward them reaches unforseen heights. Derek Dougan got stick and Neil Lennon was branded a liar on the owc website.
Feckit Holly aged 8 from kent was told on owc that she needed to learn some manners and the class acts over there even questioned her parents parenting skills and all because of a perceived slight and the fact she wona prize on blue peter.

I applaud this man for having the stones to report this abuse given the history of retribution the 'fans' of IFA have meted out in the past.

SHAME OWC SHAME!!!!!!!!

Let's try and break this down a little, stew.

1 - Do you recognise that I'm an individual and not part of some giant undifferented collective mass?
2 - Do you recognise that it's actually no bad thing to provide balance given the one-sided nature of Tony's original post and that the view of Ballymena fans (and indeed those Linfield fans who were nonplussed by the allegations) should not just be suppressed because it doesn't suit Fearon's agenda.
3 - Do you have any opinion to offer at all on the outraged reaction of the Ballymena fans?
4 - Do you realise that there isn't some sort of wierd genetic memory going on where all posters on OWC are responsible for someone's comments about "Holly from Kent" (that's one longstanding obsession you've got there, by the way, fella), and that I'm not actually therefore in any way responsible for it?
5 - Do you realise that I've given Neil Lennon no abuse at all, personal or otherwise?
6 - Do you recognise that possibly I have a longstanding dislike for David Jeffrey and several reasons for it?
7 - Can you get it into your head that the IFA doesn't have "fans"?
8 - Do you even pick up the foolishness of "Any time anyone says anything negative about an IFA club they get lambasted" given that what people are actually saying is negative about an Irish League manager?

I knew before making my first post on this thread what would happen. But I wouldn't let petty prejudiced fool stop me having my say.

It is as I've said predictable. Tony makes an allegation - or in this case presents an allegation as fact when it's hotly disputed, and angrily denied by the entire Ballymena support. I point out what the Ballymena fans think.

I then come under fire from various posters, regular posters, for all the 'crimes' of any 'OWCer' they can think of, labelled an 'apologist' and its claimed I want to cover up sectarianism and deny it takes place.

The same old pattern, repeated with me and whoever else sticks their head above the parapet.

[his holiness nb]

Stop playing the victim MW, nobody is buying it.
You, Sammy, Evil Genius, Gwelytah are all welcome here and nobody has suggested otherwise.
So this "repeated with me and whoever else sticks their head above the parapet" shite is just that, shite.

Or must we agree with you to prove we arent bigoted 

[MW]

You should start by saying why you referred to me,  or me and Tony hawks, as "all the NI soccer contingent".

You are obviously not "all the Ni soccer contingent" I meant all the contributors to this thread from the NI Soccer community.

Two posters?

You could answer this: Where in the fame of good feck did I "jump on the GAA" ? And where did I "take Darren's word for it" instead of listening what people had to say? (Did Tony hawks either I wonder?)

I was referring to the Darren Graham thread when the NI soccer crowd jumped to attack the GAA {/quote]

Did they indeed? Don't remember that

with glee while we (the GAA fans) all condemned what happened.
I dont believe I mentioned you here.

So let me get this right. When referring to "all the NI soccer contingent", you mean what I and one other poster said. Then you take what some other posters may have said, label them "the NI soccer contingent" and come up with the sentence:

"I find it funny how all the NI soccer contigent rush to say it didnt happen, or it probably didnt happen, or that the manager isnt to be believed when they are quick to jump on the GAA when something similar happens with Darren Graham"

(Then you tell me you don't believe you mentioned me!). Now you see what I was saying about individuals and collectives? You refer to me and another poster as a "contingent", then say this "contingent" does something else which I'm not conncted to (and I don't think the pther poster is either), because of what you think some other posters have said. Utterly illogical.

Regarding "taking Darrens word for it" again you have misread the post.
I said "everyone on here" as in the GAA regulars took his word for it. Again you werent mentioned in that phrase at all (stop being so self important   )
It was to emphasize the point that we werent instintively inclined to presume a statement like Darrens would be made for any other
reason that to tell the truth.

Do you really think that's the same situation? Why exactly would I "take David Jeffrey's word for it" given he's alleged that mass singing took place across a football stadium, and many, many Ballymena fans have reacted in outrage to say it didn't happen? (Never mind the Linfield fans who have said they didn't hear any such thing). Think now. Do you really think that's the same situation as the Darren Graham incident? What should I just take Jeffrey's word for it given those accused (hundreds of people) vociferously deny the allegation?

By the way, did you know of Darren Graham's character before the incident? Was he someone who you knew to have form in manipulating stories for media coverage, or for letting his emotions get the better of his on matchday (to the extent he would see and hear what he wanted)? Did the possibility of simple mis-hearing come into the equation in Graham's case? Of course not.

I just think the differences in reaction from both sides on these two similar accusations are telling.

I think they illustrate the difference between a player claiming he's been given abuse by other individuals on multiple occasions, and a manager claiming a chant took place across a stadium from a quarter where hundres of people deny there was any such thing

And this: Where exactly did I make this "blind denial", or indeed any sort of denial?

You posted reports from the alleged "guilty party" (its not unusual to plead not guilty   ) denying this happened and said you would be inclined to believe them rather than Jeffreys.
I've already said you didnt say that it "didnt happen" more so suggested it.
Just in case the facts turned out to prove you wrong I would guess.

No, not "just in case" anything - because I wasn't there and don't have the facts, only an opinion and the accounts of others.

It's really quite simple. On the one hand I have the account of David Jeffrey, who I know to be a bit of a headcase, and who I iknow to have 'form' in terms of getting an inaccurate stry about opposition fans out in the media.

On the other I have the accounts of several Ballymena fans, some of whom I know personally. And they haven't just denied it, they're outraged and have demended their club take legal action. I've also seen the bemused reaction of some Linfield fans to the claim that such a chant took place, since they were in the same or a better position to Jeffrey to hear it, and didn't.

So yes my opinion would be that the 'Ballymena' version is more likely to be true. You can at least agree it deserves to be heard.

[his holiness nb]

You didnt understand my post at all, I give up 

[MW]

t

Stop playing the victim MW, nobody is buying it.
You, Sammy, Evil Genius, Gwelytah are all welcome here and nobody has suggested otherwise.
So this "repeated with me and whoever else sticks their head above the parapet" shite is just that, shite.

Read back over this thread. I've been called an "apologist". I've been told I've denied sectarianism exists where I haven't. I've been told I jumped on the Darren Graham issue when I didn't. I've been held to account for what a random poster says on OWC. I've been labelled as 'OWC' as if I personify a website or the NI support. I along with another poster have been referred to as a "contingent", a "contingent" which has then been labelled as having done something which completely different individuals were involved in.

That's suggesting otherwise than that I'm welcome (and it's only a few posters - most have been fine with me).

Or must we agree with you to prove we arent bigoted 

That's just my point. It seems for some, you included, I must agree or I'm an apologist, covering up sectarianism, etc.

I accept you right to have a different opinion. Every time I or another 'OWCer' comments in this sort of thread, this is the sort of treatment we get. I don't expect you to agree with me. You could at least try disagreeing with me on the issue rather than just trotting out the old "well of course you guys would want to cover it up" line.

[MW]

You didnt understand my post at all, I give up 

Try me again if you think I haven't understood you. Because as far as I can see I have.

[Evil Genius]

You, Sammy, Evil Genius, Gwelytah are all welcome here and nobody has suggested otherwise.

There are a small number of posters who have made it clear, explicitly and/or implicitly, that I and my views are actually not really welcome here. Invariably, it is in the context of being dubbed [pun intended] one of "the owc crowd". As such, you are one of the most irritating offenders.

Anyhow, I don't let these prejudices deter me, since I realise that such posters are not representative of "the GAA crowd". In fact, one of the things I have learned from this Board is that there is no such thing as a "GAA crowd", since that constituency represents a wide range of views.

[Solomon Kane]

Whether this happened or not it's funny rather than anything else. Linfield fans get ribbed by another team. Big deal. The people who Jeffrey said were chanting knew exactly which buttons to press.

[MW]

I wouldn't see what Jeffrey claims to have heard as either acceptable or funny.

[his holiness nb]

You, Sammy, Evil Genius, Gwelytah are all welcome here and nobody has suggested otherwise.

There are a small number of posters who have made it clear, explicitly and/or implicitly, that I and my views are actually not really welcome here. Invariably, it is in the context of being dubbed [pun intended] one of "the owc crowd". As such, you are one of the most irritating offenders.

Anyhow, I don't let these prejudices deter me, since I realise that such posters are not representative of "the GAA crowd". In fact, one of the things I have learned from this Board is that there is no such thing as a "GAA crowd", since that constituency represents a wide range of views.

EG, does disagreeing with what you post automatically say you are unwelcome??  
Despite several arguments with yourself I have, on many occasions, said that I would not like to see you banned as you are entitled to your opinions, as much as I am entitled to question them.
If by dubbing you "one of the OWC crowd" you feel unwelcome then thats your own issue, its natural to say "one of the OWC crowd" when referring to the small group of NI Soccer fans who came here to argue with Tony Fearon in defence of all things NI Soccer. Its my understand that OWC stands for Our Wee Country which refers specifically to the Northern Irish Soccer team. Surely from that logic its not prejudiced to refer to you in this category??
Surely if a small group of GAA fans (and not soccer) went onto a soccer website a constantly argued on the side of the GAA in controversial issues it would be natural for the people there to refer to them as the "GAA crowd" ?
I certainly wouldnt consider it as prejudiced by any means.

If my understanding of "OWC" is wrong please let me know and I'll refrain from referring to you under this category.

One thing I do take exception to however are the insults you throw in sporadically (well you call me up on it when I do it) such as..

"Anyhow, I don't let these prejudices deter me"

I think the above explanation should clarify that my referring to the "OWC crowd" is not from prejudice and I'd therefore appreciate if you could retract that slur.

[MW]

It's not just referring to people as being from the same category though, is it. It goes much deeper than that, to the extent where it's almost like 'we' are all seen as sharing one brain, one consciousness, and the opinions of one automatically become the opinions of all. So the opuinions of one (me) are attributed to all, then this one (me) is held to account for the opinions of 'all', which actually turn out to be the opinion or action of another individual or individuals.

I mean, look at this stuff:

I find it funny how all the NI soccer contigent rush to say it didnt happen, or it probably didnt happen, or that the manager isnt to be believed when they are quick to jump on the GAA when something similar happens with Darren Graham and everyone on here A) takes Darrens word for it and B) supports him and hopes this sort of carry on is cut out.

Allegations of sectarian abuse made by Fermanagh GAA Player...instantly believed by OWC

Allegations of sectarian abuse made by Irish League manager...instantly rubbished by OWC

Where is the consistency? I think we know the answer....

You simply refuse to see that sectarianism exists in NI soccer, wether or not this incident happened in the Ballymena v Linfield game is totally irrelevant, whereas you where very quick to jump on the Darren Graham bandwagon.

Wow, I am seeing a pattern here. Any time anyone says anything negative about an IFA club they get lambasted and the personal abuse toward them reaches unforseen heights. Derek Dougan got stick and Neil Lennon was branded a liar on the owc website.
Feckit Holly aged 8 from kent was told on owc that she needed to learn some manners and the class acts over there even questioned her parents parenting skills and all because of a perceived slight and the fact she wona prize on blue peter.

I applaud this man for having the stones to report this abuse given the history of retribution the 'fans' of IFA have meted out in the past.

SHAME OWC SHAME!!!!!!!!

It is, quite frankly, alarming.

[his holiness nb]

Not alarming at all and once again MW you are playing the victim.

Curious though how you jump onto my post to EG referring to him specifically, then on another hand whinge about it when we say you might possibly be of the same mindset 

Its easy to cut and paste a selection of quotes to suit your argument and call it "alarming".
I could easily do the same to show the "alarming" views of you and others, but thats just lazy.

Look we are clearly not going to agree on this, I explained myself very well to EG and am not prepared to get dragged into a tit for tat argument which lasts all day.

Lets leave it at that, after you have the last word of course 

[MW]

It's not just referring to people as being from the same category though, is it. It goes much deeper than that, to the extent where it's almost like 'we' are all seen as sharing one brain, one consciousness, and the opinions of one automatically become the opinions of all. So the opuinions of one (me) are attributed to all, then this one (me) is held to account for the opinions of 'all', which actually turn out to be the opinion or action of another individual or individuals.

I mean, look at this stuff:

I find it funny how all the NI soccer contigent rush to say it didnt happen, or it probably didnt happen, or that the manager isnt to be believed when they are quick to jump on the GAA when something similar happens with Darren Graham and everyone on here A) takes Darrens word for it and B) supports him and hopes this sort of carry on is cut out.

Allegations of sectarian abuse made by Fermanagh GAA Player...instantly believed by OWC

Allegations of sectarian abuse made by Irish League manager...instantly rubbished by OWC

Where is the consistency? I think we know the answer....

You simply refuse to see that sectarianism exists in NI soccer, wether or not this incident happened in the Ballymena v Linfield game is totally irrelevant, whereas you where very quick to jump on the Darren Graham bandwagon.

Wow, I am seeing a pattern here. Any time anyone says anything negative about an IFA club they get lambasted and the personal abuse toward them reaches unforseen heights. Derek Dougan got stick and Neil Lennon was branded a liar on the owc website.
Feckit Holly aged 8 from kent was told on owc that she needed to learn some manners and the class acts over there even questioned her parents parenting skills and all because of a perceived slight and the fact she wona prize on blue peter.

I applaud this man for having the stones to report this abuse given the history of retribution the 'fans' of IFA have meted out in the past.

SHAME OWC SHAME!!!!!!!!

It is, quite frankly, alarming.

On a related note, by the way it's a neat trick 5ivetimes has going (and to some extent you have going), which actually if systematically done could be fairly symbiotic with Tony Fearon's approach.

It seems to go like this:

- Tony makes a wild allegation or puts a completely one-sided account
- "OWCer" points out this allegation isn't accurate, or balances the story by giving the other side of the account
- 5ivetimes jumps in and says said poster is an "apologist", wants to deny all instances of sectarianism, is only interested in a cover-up

In this situation, Tony's claim essentially becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in the eyes of 5ivetimes. If it's questioned, that just confirms his view of themmuns that they're just "apologists". In fact it's actually in Tony's interests to make his allegations as one-sided, inaccurate or downright false as he can, because the "denial" forms as essential part of reaffirming the view of themmuns.

All I am saying that it is not the first time the Irish League or NI Football in general has had allegations of sectarianism and of course the usual apologists are quick to jump on the bandwagon to deny anything ever happens.

Shock Horror, allegations of sectarianism in NI Soccer.
Shock Horror, the ususal suspects are very quick to defend NI Soccer.