Kennedy is new Irish FA president

[T Fearon]

Sammy, that is not asking people to refarin form Sport as a means of relaxation, what His Late Holiness was saying was, Sport should not be allowed to be a priority over attendance at Mass. Admit that the IFA Ruling barring Sunday Soccer is merely a reflection of the religious beliefs of its ruling body.

By the way, the Pope's authority nothwithstanding, we in Armagh all know a famous late Cardinal who used to shave about ten minutes off his usual Sunday Mass time,if Armagh happened to be playing that afternoon

[Chrisowc]

Tony, could you please answer the question I put to you?

Thanks.

[T Fearon]

Chris, I am talking about the Red Hand Flag with British Crown superimposed ( you know the one unionists seem to have adopted as some sort of National Flag), the use of the English National Anthem.

Now could you please give me one example of the acknowledgement of catholic/nationalist culture at an international game at Windsor Park?

[Chrisowc]

Chris, I am talking about the Red Hand Flag with British Crown superimposed ( you know the one unionists seem to have adopted as some sort of National Flag), the use of the English National Anthem.

Now could you please give me one example of the acknowledgement of catholic/nationalist culture at an international game at Windsor Park?

You referred to exclusive unionist symbols while deliberately ignoring a badge containing a Celtic Cross and Shamrocks.  A clear acknowledgement of Irishness.  As for acknowledgement of catholic/nationalist culture you are missing the point.  You are well aware of the Football For All initiative.

The National Flag of Northern Ireland is rightly or wrongly the Union Flag and the anthem played before international matches is rightly or wrongly National Anthem of UK.....not England.

The Red Hand flag you refer to is recognised by both UEFA and FIFA to represent Northern Ireland in international competition.

http://www.uefa.com/footballeurope/countries/association=63/index.html

http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive/edition=68/teams/index.html

So again please can you explain how IFA use exclusively unionist symbols at International matches?

[Main Street]

You referred to exclusive unionist symbols while deliberately ignoring a badge containing a Celtic Cross and Shamrocks.  A clear acknowledgement of Irishness.  As for acknowledgement of catholic/nationalist culture you are missing the point.  You are well aware of the Football For All initiative.

The National Flag of Northern Ireland is rightly or wrongly the Union Flag and the anthem played before international matches is rightly or wrongly National Anthem of UK.....not England.

The Red Hand flag you refer to is recognised by both UEFA and FIFA to represent Northern Ireland in international competition.

http://www.uefa.com/footballeurope/countries/association=63/index.html

http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive/edition=68/teams/index.html

The flag has been accepted by FIFA and Uefa because the IFA proposed it as the flag of NI football.
Their recognition of that Ulster flag does not bestow anything to the flag other than that.

The articles of the IFA ( in complete contrast to the GAA) do not have a "mission statement"  no mention of the value of sport to the peoples cultural identity or the absolute rejection of any political or religious issues inside the association not to mention the basic one of being non sectarian.

Not saying it is any of these things (though sunday football is a glaring issue) but I would expect all these issues to be dealt with in a preamble to the constitution
It is an absolutely mundane uninspiring document.

Of course the GAA  flies the  tricolour and plays AnbF  and not the slightest concession to Unionist culture at games in Ulster.

[SammyG]

The articles of the IFA ( in complete contrast to the GAA) do not have a "mission statement"  no mention of the value of sport to the peoples cultural identity or the absolute rejection of any political or religious issues inside the association not to mention the basic one of being non sectarian.

Are you taking the piss? Have you actually read the GAA's official guide?

Not saying it is any of these things (though sunday football is a glaring issue) but I would expect all these issues to be dealt with in a preamble to the constitution

Why would a non-political body have political statements in their constitution?

It is an absolutely mundane uninspiring document.

Why would you expect it to be anything else?

[Main Street]

Are you taking the piss? Have you actually read the GAA's official guide?

Of course I have read it, it is available here
http://www.gaa.ie/files/official_reports/og_part1_jan_2007.pdf
The first few pages outline the mission statement of the GAA. Maybee you read it as a subversive repressive document?

Why would a non-political body have political statements in their constitution?

Who said it should have a political statement? I wrote that it should have a statement that it is non political and non religious.
If I write that it should state that it is non political how do you deduct that I say it should have a political statement?
Non religious
As I see it no football on a Sunday is a concession to the beliefs of a religious sect.

Why would you expect it to be anything else?

No expections, just an opinion.

[SammyG]

Are you taking the piss? Have you actually read the GAA's official guide?

Of course I have read it, it is available here
http://www.gaa.ie/files/official_reports/og_part1_jan_2007.pdf
The first few pages outline the mission statement of the GAA. Maybee you read it as a subversive repressive document?

It's not subversive or repressive just deeply political. I've read manifestos that have less politics in them.

Why would a non-political body have political statements in their constitution?

Who said it should have a political statement? I wrote that it should have a statement that it is non political and non religious.
If I write that it should state that it is non political how do you deduct that I say it should have a political statement?

Sorry I'm still not with you, why would a sporting body have any need for a statement on politics or relegion (either for or againsT)

Non religious
As I see it no football on a Sunday is a concession to the beliefs of a religious sect.

In what way?

Why would you expect it to be anything else?

No expections, just an opinion.

So why bring it up then?

[Evil Genius]

The articles of the IFA ( in complete contrast to the GAA) do not have a "mission statement"  no mention of the value of sport to the peoples cultural identity or the absolute rejection of any political or religious issues inside the association not to mention the basic one of being non sectarian.
Not saying it is any of these things (though sunday football is a glaring issue) but I would expect all these issues to be dealt with in a preamble to the constitution
It is an absolutely mundane uninspiring document.

Of course the GAA  flies the  tricolour and plays AnbF  and not the slightest concession to Unionist culture at games in Ulster.

Re your first point, just go to the IFA's website and 2 ckicks will take you to the following:

http://www.irishfa.com/grassroots/football-for-all/
Football for All
Founded in 1880, the Irish Football Association (IFA) is the fourth oldest football governing body in the world. The IFA plays an important role in the development of association football through the work of the International Football Association Board, the world rule making body of football, of which the IFA is a constituent member.

Since 1998 the IFA has worked in partnership with the Northern Ireland Community Relations Council, Sports Council Northern Ireland and Amalgamation of Official Northern Ireland Supporters Clubs to tackle the problems of sectarianism in football, with assistance from the EU Programme for Peace and Reconciliation.

Michael Boyd is the Head of the Community Relations department and has been employed with the IFA since February 2000. Michael is a Sports Studies graduate from the University of Ulster, Jordanstown and has an MSc in Communications, Public Relations and Advertising, also from the University of Ulster. He is a keen amateur league player for Sirocco Works and acquired his European A Licence coaching badge in 2000.

Colleen Macauley is the Community Relations Officer. A graduate of Queen's University and the University of Ulster, Jordanstown, Colleen has a BA (Hons) in Information Management and an MSc in Management, specialising in marketing. Colleen was previously employed with Ballymoney Community Safety Partnership and Newtownabbey's Local Strategy Partnership. Colleen has a broad experience of working with interagency partnerships, local youth groups, sports clubs and community groups in the development of cross community football initiatives, fundraising, community relations work, action plan and strategy development.

Football For All Ethos

The IFA's Community Relations Policy statement is:

"The IFA respects and values diversity. We endeavour to provide an environment which values and enables the full involvement of all people, in all aspects and at every level of Northern Ireland football, regardless of perceived cultural identity, political affiliation or religious beliefs. We believe in the philosophy of Football For All".

The IFA has always endeavoured to promote Football For All and condemns all things sectarian. We pride ourselves with the fact that all Northern Ireland International Football teams have always represented our community fairly. Our Mini-Soccer, Football Development Centres, County Coaching Programmes, Women's Football and Disability Development Programmes have always been cross community, promoting Football For All. The appointment of the IFA's first Community Relations Officer in 1998 was another forward step in a long process, which will ultimately result in the provision of football in an environment where everyone feels safe and included.

Aims

The IFA's development plan 2003 states that the vision for football is: "By 2007 Football will be the most popular and inclusive sport in Northern Ireland, in which all are encouraged to participate and realize their full potential, led by a dynamic and outward looking governing body with successful International teams".

The IFA's Community Relations Programme is a long term project concerned with promoting Football For All. The main objective of the IFA's Football For All campaign is to make sure is that the sport of football is welcoming and inclusive to all members of our society in Northern Ireland.

USEFUL WEBSITES

farenet.org

nilbymouth.org

srtrc.org

And to demonstrate that this means more then just nice words, one click takes you to the latest intitiative in what is a very active, year-round programme:

http://www.irishfa.com/the-ifa/news/3190/top-coaches-give-bigotry-the-red-card/
TOP COACHES GIVE BIGOTRY THE RED CARD
29/06/2007
TOP Irish League managers, Marty Quinn (Coleraine), Colin Malone (Glenavon) and Gary McKinstry (Armagh City) were united against sectarianism when they took part in an IFA Community Relations Awareness Workshop.

The three managers and 16 other coaches from Northern Ireland, Canada, USA and the Republic of Ireland participated in the workshop which was held as part of their B Licence Coach Education Programme this week at Stranmillis College in Belfast.

IFA Head of Community Relations, Michael Boyd, a European A Licence Coach, delivered the Community Relations Awareness Workshop and was impressed with the feedback from the Coaches: "There was a strong representation in this group from the Irish League and also an international feel as there were coaches from Dublin, Washington and Ontario," explained Michael.

"However all the coaches who took part in this workshop were united in their stance against bigotry. Coaches are powerful role models in the community and play a vital role creating a more inclusive, safe and family orientated culture throughout the sport of football. These guys are the unsung heroes of football and I thoroughly enjoyed facilitating this workshop with them".

Indeed, the home page today also includes the following link about community work being carried out in Nigeria:
http://www.irishfa.com/the-ifa/news/3195/a-group-with-an-afician-mission/


As for your second point (concession to Unionist culture at GAA games in Ulster), I would be very surprised to see any evidence of same, since the GAA is an avowedly nationalist organisation. Which, as far as I'm concerned, is fine; they can be whatever they choose to be.

It's just that having made their choice, they should not be surprised that they hold no great appeal to one fifth of Ireland's population.

Consequently, after nearly a century and a half of the GAA's existence, I can only conclude that they'd still rather keep their nationalist ethos, than become exclusively sporting and fully inclusive of all of Ireland's people.

And we are the ones who get accused by bigots like Fearon of being "monocultural"...

[Main Street]

Evil Genius.
I did not see any obvious link to the FFA information on the IFA site and I even had a cursory glance at that Grassroots page.
Thanks for pointing that out.
What is the reason for not having football on a Sunday?

WTF are you on about Sammy? all you had to do was point out that the IFA has a seperate scene for dealing with the inclusive non sectarian bit instead of uttering irrelevant reactions.  Is the FFA a joint venture with the IFA or not? 

[SammyG]

What is the reason for not having football on a Sunday?

Because only 74% voted against it at the last AGM and 75% is required to change the constitution. It is antiquated, and meaningless (IFA teams have played on Sundays many times, including last week) but I still do not see how it is in any way sectarian.

WTF are you on about Sammy? all you had to do was point out that the IFA has a seperate scene for dealing with the inclusive non sectarian bit instead of uttering irrelevant reactions. 

I have honestly no idea what you're on about. You stated that the IFA Articles should have political aims in them and I think that they shouldn't. They are a sporting organisation not a political one. You said they should have a guide lije the GAA one (something which I am very thankful that they don't have and which FIFA would outlaw even if they wanted to), you never mentioned FFA or any other initiatives.

Is the FFA a joint venture with the IFA or not? 

FFA is an IFA venture which is supported by the fans and various cross-community organisations, not sure what you mean by joint venture.

[Main Street]

Because only 74% voted against it at the last AGM and 75% is required to change the constitution. It is antiquated, and meaningless (IFA teams have played on Sundays many times, including last week) but I still do not see how it is in any way sectarian.

That explains why it is still there. I asked why was it there in the first place.
I never said it was sectarian, I clearly wrote that it was or looked like a concesssion to a religious sect´s belief.
If that is true then the constitution of the IFA is stuck with the religious views from a bigone age imprinted on its constitution that can be maintained by a 25% vote.

you never mentioned FFA or any other initiatives.
FFA is an IFA venture which is supported by the fans and various cross-community organisations, not sure what you mean by joint venture.

How the feck would I know about the FFA? why would I feckin ask about it if I did not know about it.
"Since 1998 the IFA has worked in partnership with the Northern Ireland Community Relations Council, Sports Council Northern Ireland and Amalgamation of Official Northern Ireland Supporters Clubs to tackle the problems of sectarianism in footbal"
That´s why I wrote joint

Sammy your level of debate in this matter is reduced to acting like a contrary turd, surely you can do better?

[SammyG]

That explains why it is still there. I asked why was it there in the first place.

I wasn't around 120 odd years ago when the constitution was written but at the time there wasn't any Sunday football, so I'd imagine it wasn't seen as an issue.

I never said it was sectarian, I clearly wrote that it was or looked like a concesssion to a religious sect´s belief.

I'll repeat again that I don't understand this. The rule is antiquated and should be done away with but how is it a concession to any relegious sect?

If that is true then the constitution of the IFA is stuck with the religious views from a bigone age imprinted on its constitution that can be maintained by a 25% vote.

As with most associations there is a 75% rule to prevent the constitution being changed at every meeting (not sure what the GAA's position is but I'd imagine it's something similar). The rule about Sunday football (which as I've already said is simply ignored) has been debated twice, recently and both times it has failed by tiny percentages. The 26% (approx) breaks down into both those who want to keep it and those who didn't bother to turn up at the meeting and/or didn't vote as they simply didn't see it as a significant issue.

you never mentioned FFA or any other initiatives.
FFA is an IFA venture which is supported by the fans and various cross-community organisations, not sure what you mean by joint venture.

How the feck would I know about the FFA? why would I feckin ask about it if I did not know about it.
"Since 1998 the IFA has worked in partnership with the Northern Ireland Community Relations Council, Sports Council Northern Ireland and Amalgamation of Official Northern Ireland Supporters Clubs to tackle the problems of sectarianism in footbal"
That´s why I wrote joint

No probs I misunderstood your original post which was why I asked for clarification a couple of times.

Sammy your level of debate in this matter is reduced to acting like a contrary turd, surely you can do better?

Apologies I wasn't trying to be arsey, I just wasn't getting what you were asking for.

[Jim_Murphy_74]

SammyG,

I think you are sticking your head in the sand about the "Never on a Sunday" rule.   It is a throw back to a time when Catholics were locked out of parks and couldn't shop because their Protestant betters decided how the Sabbath would be observed.

That's what people don't like about it.

Of course to call it sectarian/concession to a sect etc, etc.  is over the top completely.

However it is inescapable that some find it offensive and also inescapable that some that voted to maintain it, voted for that very reason.

/Jim.

[Jim_Murphy_74]

ChrisOWC,

The were was an interesting report wrtitten on this site one time by a first-time OWC attendee.  He made very valid points about the symbolism and identity of the OWC soccer team and support.   While acknowledging the efforts made and putting to bed the Fearon-type allegations of blatant sectarianism, he pointed out how he as a nationalist would never be comfortable with the flags, anthems and identity on display.

I have no doubt a Unionist at a GAA match would feel a similar discomfort.(I also have no doubt they would not find blatant sectarianism either).

Unfortunately the majority of OWC soccer supports are of a Unionist background and the majority of GAA supporters are of a Nationalists background.  I'd even accept that the latter even more so for historical reasons.

At the end of the day only a denuding of sports events of all symbolism would solve these issues.  Naturally many would baulk at this because identity is a huge part of following teams.

So while Fearon and his ilk should drop the excessive and blatantly wrong criticisms of OWC and it's fanbase, OWC supporters should stop their bleating over those that are more comfortable following the FAI's XI.   

/Jim.