GAA Betting Issue - Who was in the right?

[Jack Dempsey]

It's not as simple as that Jack.  IBAS are funded by the bookies, so it's fair to say that you have the bookies tend to get the marginal calls in their favour.
Plus as it happens I think that IBAS would find in favour of Powers as I believe it was a mistake, the fact that the mistake was okayed by HO wouldn't be mitigating circumstances, they would still rule it as a palpable error (IMO).

so he is not right ?, if it is marginal he should go for it, what will it cost, a postage stamp

[oakleafgael]

Lone Shark,

As someone who is involved in running a one shop independant I can empathise with you here. Once the bet was checked with the trader it should have been honoured. Can I ask, would you have went so heavy if you hadnt thought the odds where slightly wrong? Regardless, its bad form on PP's behalf to not honour the bet. For all their bluster and PR some of their markets are a disgrace, and on ocassions some of your firms arent that hot either although i can appreciate that the lower level gaa is very hard to make a level book on.

[Fíor Gael]

As someone who is unfamiliar with betting and odds could someone tell me exactly how much loneshark was shafted on say if it was a £1000 bet?

[Hardy]

1,000 at 8/11 would return 1,727.27 (1000 x 8 / 11 plus your 1,000 back). 8/15 would return 1,533.33.

[Hound]

As Lone Shark himself said, betting shops play by totally different rules to all other shops. Just because it says 8/11 on the docket, means feck all. I think if it was a general joe soap punter, they would likely have paid out (and IMO certainly should pay out). But I guess the view they have taken is that another bookie saw that they made a mistake with a price, and that he tried to take advantage of that and lumped on accordingly.  It was clearly an error in the price.

I don't blame LS for chancing his arm, but given the circumstances its hard to blame PP for changing the price.

[Lone Shark]

IBAS would be a close call - as Joe said, they can sometimes take the palpable error thing a bit much, (as in I do think that when the customer tries to make sure that the bet is checked as much as possible before it's struck, then it should cease to apply) but it's not necessarily that I'm saying that I'm not going that direction because I think I mightn't win - it's because it becomes a relatively big issue for the bookie then, and seeing as the guys making the decision are fellas that I'd have worked with, I'm just uneasy at the idea of contesting it. I don't want them to be forced to pay out. Of course I'd take it if they felt it was right, but my reasoning for doing this was to see whether my case is legitimate in the eyes of those who haven't spent their whole life working in the industry. So far it appears that the general position supports that view, which is all I could have hoped for.


My take on palpable error is that it should be obvious to the customer with a modicum of understanding that the price couldn't be right. I've heard of bookies trying to claim palpable error about 4/1 shots when they offered 6/1 and I've no idea how they think they could get away with stuff like that - ditto this case here. I saw the price, having worked as a GAA compiler for years and I honestly thought it was genuine - I really don't see how that's "palpable".

[Smokin Joe]

It's not as simple as that Jack.  IBAS are funded by the bookies, so it's fair to say that you have the bookies tend to get the marginal calls in their favour.
Plus as it happens I think that IBAS would find in favour of Powers as I believe it was a mistake, the fact that the mistake was okayed by HO wouldn't be mitigating circumstances, they would still rule it as a palpable error (IMO).

so he is not right ?, if it is marginal he should go for it, what will it cost, a postage stamp

Jack, he is right, I just don't think tht IBAS would see it that way.

[Smokin Joe]

but my reasoning for doing this was to see whether my case is legitimate in the eyes of those who haven't spent their whole life working in the industry. So far it appears that the general position supports that view, which is all I could have hoped for.

In one way though the question is unfair, as anyone who would only have a passing interest in betting (or even less), ie the target audience of your question, will automatically feel that if the price is written on the docket it should be honoured.  You only have to see the responses above re Tescos, shops, contract law and the gambling bill.
We know that this is not always the case.

BTW, just to make it clear that I think you should have been paid in the circumstances, but would have to say that I don't think that non serious gamblers would appreciate the finer points of the story (IMO).

[Lone Shark]

but my reasoning for doing this was to see whether my case is legitimate in the eyes of those who haven't spent their whole life working in the industry. So far it appears that the general position supports that view, which is all I could have hoped for.

In one way though the question is unfair, as anyone who would only have a passing interest in betting (or even less), ie the target audience of your question, will automatically feel that if the price is written on the docket it should be honoured.  You only have to see the responses above re Tescos, shops, contract law and the gambling bill.
We know that this is not always the case.

BTW, just to make it clear that I think you should have been paid in the circumstances, but would have to say that I don't think that non serious gamblers would appreciate the finer points of the story (IMO).

Fair point actually. Ara, tis good to talk all the same. 

[oneflewoverthecuckoonest]

 A few years ago I noted divergent opinions between price compilers in certain senior championship matches, unfortunately this appears to be no longer the case and the option of choice for the punter has died as you odds compilers are at a pain not to be out of line with each other.

           

[Lone Shark]

Loneshark a few retorts to your reply. Firstly credit is due to you for pricing the lower level games when your competitors are failing to do so. On the flip side, for a big firm to offer their prices in the shops to a maximum of 400 is a joke, for a small independent it would be acceptable, not for a multinational business like Ladbrokes.
             

You do not get to be a large multinational by being flippant about money, even small sums of money. If a guy bets in the shops I have no concrete measurement to say that this guy may have taken us for a few quid on the Christy Ring Cup, but we got it back elsewhere, like I do online. If I haemorrhage £5k a week on these bets, as I would do if I laid away with impunity, I would be fired. The new guy would learn from my mistake and then not offer them at all. I know these events matter to Irish people - if I tried to explain to my english boss that I was offering bets on events that had maybe 200/300 people in attendance, he'd scrutinise the decision and the results - and without any clear MEASURABLE business reason for offering them, I would be instructed to pull them. Hopefully the day will come when I'm not doing all Irish stuff by myself and I can spend a full day studying the form for these matches - that day is not today I'm afraid.

I read a thread  a few months ago where you listed nearly a 100 novelty type GAA chmapionship linked bets. The majority of these bets would not be attractive to your average punter even if you added an extra zero to your quoted price because maybe one or two of the 100 odd are likely to bear fruit. Why waste your time insulting the punter's intelligence. Before you jump to the defence, name more than 2 of those bets that you personally would bet on. As I noted your odds on no goalscorer is a joke and examining your markets on that subject your bravery extends to being the biggest price on the least likely option. In all honesty you would b better off not pricing in this market.
   

Not at all. These bets were not designed for people who want to make a killing - they were designed to give people something to talk about, to gain a few column inches to remind people that while we are English owned, we are an Irish identity offering Irish product, and to localise ourselves a bit. You may not have isolated value, but tell that to the people that have piled into David Brady to start for Mayo @ 2/1 before he got recalled into the squad, or Cormac Bane to win an All Star at 50/1 - there's two for you right there. I will lose money on this stuff, and just because you didn't get any of it is no reason to berate me for doing so.

As for my "bravery" - my job is not to be brave - it is to assess the probability of each outcome and to price it accordingly. Any bookie who prices up with the intention of "drawng money" on any one selection is not pricing correctly - if you price properly you should believe that every price you post up is a correct reflection and any one of them could draw the money.  I took an independent look at this market and devised an algorithm for pricing several goal markets all based on my own expectancy - in other words my prices go up without a second look to Powers or Boyles - and you reckon it's not worth doing? Hardly the attitude of a punter who wants choice in the marketplace. Again, you're giving me no reason to believe that this is anything other than bitterness that last year you made money punting incorrect prices with Ladbrokes and now that door is closed to you.

By pricing for Ladbrokes you at least give the punter another choice, because Paddy Power, Boyles Celtic and Bruces to name but 4 all appear to sing from the same hymn sheet and fear going out on a limb. Last year you were first up with prices for the Minor championships and that is where you gain kudos with the punter in that you give a price choice before your rivals. A few years ago I noted divergent opinions between price compilers in certain senior championship matches, unfortunately this appears to be no longer the case and the option of choice for the punter has died as you odds compilers are at a pain not to be out of line with each other.

In conclusion LS as I indicated earlier you should be paid by Paddy Power. However this episode may serve the mere punter because should a similar case arise where a punters gets a bet OK'ed with Ladbrokes HQ can we assume that you will see to it that this sort of bet is indeed honoured rather than resorting to the Paddy Power tactics.             

I'm all too aware that there are very few actual opinions out there - however you must remember too that these opinions have been cannibalised by arbsters. This week I am Dublin minus six when most bookies are a five. I actually think the handicap should be seven, but if I do that I'll just be flooded by people backing both sides with different bookies and looking to hit the middle and get two payouts. It's understandable, but it's not good business to lay. And ultimately my brief has to be to make a percentage for Ladbrokes.

And do you have my word that a bet ok'd with HQ will be honoured? If the bet is a bet on domestic Irish sports (not racing mind) and thus falls under my remit then yes, absolutely. I would encourage anyone who feels they have been harshly treated to come back to me. I won't commit on stuff that's not my product because ultimately I can't promise something that's not my decision to make, but i would certainly go in to bat for you if anyone brings such an issue to my attention.

[Stranworst]

The fact that they accepted the bet and put the call in says it all, definitely should have paid out the original price.

On National day this year in the bookies I work they had made a mistake on the National coupon, where it should have said:

An Irish trained 1,2, and 3 - 8/1

it said

An Irish trained 1,2 or 3 - 8/1

I pointed this mistake out to my boss but he was busy and said to ask the girl who made the coupon, shes a bit stupid so said that it was right, I then stuck a hundred quid on it as it was a cert. At about twelve o clock he twigged on and took all the coupons in but all bets struck earleir had to stand.

Silver Birch won for the Irish and I had 900quid to lift later!!

[Fishead_Sam]

Lone Shark I am most certainly backing you on this one with you same thing happened to me with Boyles Sports, I put €30 on Mayo to beat Fermanagh @ 9/4 (If I recall I may be wrong) which I got in Boyle Sports in Clones, yet when I went to collect that money in Boyle Sports in Dublin they told me the bet was actually 4/9, my problem lay in the fact that the person in the Clones Office wrote the price in biro after they put it through the machine, despite the fact that that price was on the screen in the Clones office & I asked them to write the price down because I thought that was crazy odds seen that Fermanagh had lost all there games & the fact that despite this being a home game for them it was in Clones therefore not really @ home. When I argued in the shop in Dublin that they fax the slip to Clones to check if the handwriting was belonging to any of the Clones staff, I was convienently told that the fax machine was out of order. The girl then suggested I go into the office in Clones and argue my case, this was in Dublin & I was wearing a MAYO Jersey. I asked her was she serious? She could not understand the inconvieniance of someone from Mayo simply casualy calling up to Clones for the difference of €40 or so between the two odds. It would cost me far more on public transport & food & time wasted to collect the damn bet. I later collected the clearly worse 4/9 odds win as I was told by others no matter how right or wrong I was I would never win against the bookies.

Will never lay a bet with Boyles Sports again, Never Ever Ever. 

[Jack Dempsey]

If Louth were evs to win the match and wexford +2 was indeed 8/11, what LS did you think Powers were going to be betting Wexford +1 ?

[Jack Dempsey]

Lone Shark I am most certainly backing you on this one with you same thing happened to me with Boyles Sports, I put €30 on Mayo to beat Fermanagh @ 9/4 (If I recall I may be wrong) which I got in Boyle Sports in Clones, yet when I went to collect that money in Boyle Sports in Dublin they told me the bet was actually 4/9, my problem lay in the fact that the person in the Clones Office wrote the price in biro after they put it through the machine, despite the fact that that price was on the screen in the Clones office & I asked them to write the price down because I thought that was crazy odds seen that Fermanagh had lost all there games & the fact that despite this being a home game for them it was in Clones therefore not really @ home. When I argued in the shop in Dublin that they fax the slip to Clones to check if the handwriting was belonging to any of the Clones staff, I was convienently told that the fax machine was out of order. The girl then suggested I go into the office in Clones and argue my case, this was in Dublin & I was wearing a MAYO Jersey. I asked her was she serious? She could not understand the inconvieniance of someone from Mayo simply casualy calling up to Clones for the difference of €40 or so between the two odds. It would cost me far more on public transport & food & time wasted to collect the damn bet. I later collected the clearly worse 4/9 odds win as I was told by others no matter how right or wrong I was I would never win against the bookies.

Will never lay a bet with Boyles Sports again, Never Ever Ever. 

what did you expect. the shop staff cannot be held accountable for every single price. Most of the time they dont have a clue. This was clearly an obvious error.
anyone remember the lads who backed liverpool to not win the CL and 500/1 but kicked up a fuss when they found out it should have been 1/500... chancers the lots of ye