Sam Maguire permutations

[onefineday]

Another tweak I'd suggest for the Sam Maguire series.
Pot 1 seeds - provincial winners
Pot 2 seeds - prior year TC winners and then league placings of those qualified
Pot 3 seeds - league placings of those qualified
Pot 4 seeds - league placings of those qualified

Whilst still allowing provincial finalists to qualify, they'll be seeded based on league form.

But then I'd suggest a change which would really incentivise winning provinces and league finals etc. For the group stage games, instead of playing home, away and neutral, why not play home, away and home. With pot 1 and pot 2 seeds getting 2 home games. It'd at least even things up for everyone else versus the dubs who will likely have home, away and crokes park!!
Could be a case for keeping neutral for pot 2 seeds third game instead of another home game.

[seafoid]

I think the Provincials need to be seeded. That would cut out 1 of this year's non D1/2
There has to be a policy on promotion from D3. Last year they were included. This year not.
If there is a case where say you have 2 extra there could be a preliminary round.

The next thing is the seeding
The first seeds of provincial winners are fine.
the second seeds  would be better if provincials were seeded but they still arse up the ranking in seeds 3 and 4 .

One of the problems of using the provincials is that Ulster and Connacht have most of the D1 teams. So you can have a losing team that is one of the strongest regardless of  who is in the provincial final. Having Mayo and Tyrone as third seeds doesn't make sense.
The only way to ensure a decent ranking system is to base Groups 2-4 on league ranking.

Doing it half and half -ie half provincial (1 and 2) and League (3 and 4 ) is doing it arseways.

So Group 2 with Galway, probably Armagh and Tyrone has 3 of this year's D1 while Group 3 with Dublin, Sligo, Ros and the Flourbags has just 1
They could also adjust the groups for balance.

One thing they could do is reorganise the second seeds. Eg if Mayo are ranked higher than Louth they should be second seeds . Same with Tyrone and Clare. Then second seeds would be stronger and there would be more balance. For Louth and Clare what counts is access to the Sam Maguire. 

Maybe it doesn't matter because it's the top 3 anyway but it will be interesting to see which group provide the quarter finalists.

[Cunny Funt]

I'll be surprised if the four provincial winners don't top their group and if they do it will highlight the importance of still winning it. They'll be hard to beat in the Quarter final also with the week rest advantage. 

[full moon]

I'll be surprised if the four provincial winners don't top their group and if they do it will highlight the importance of still winning it. They'll be hard to beat in the Quarter final also with the week rest advantage.

Where are the QFs going to be played, and will Dublin's "neutral" match be in Croke?

[seafoid]

I'll be surprised if the four provincial winners don't top their group and if they do it will highlight the importance of still winning it. They'll be hard to beat in the Quarter final also with the week rest advantage.

Where are the QFs going to be played, and will Dublin's "neutral" match be in Croke?

Beginning of July

[An Watcher]

Derry won today but I do feel their levels may begin to fall a bit now.  Could be the pick of the provincial winners

[Hound]

I'll be surprised if the four provincial winners don't top their group and if they do it will highlight the importance of still winning it. They'll be hard to beat in the Quarter final also with the week rest advantage.

Where are the QFs going to be played, and will Dublin's "neutral" match be in Croke?

Dublin's neutral match will not be in Croker, (unless Sligo specifically request it, which presumably is unlikely)

The four QFs are likely to be in Croke park as two double bills

[An Watcher]

Any idea where the Tyrone Westmeath game will be?

[Rossfan]

Breffni the obvious one.
Rumours (unsubstantiated) Dublin v Ros 5pm Sat 27th.

[yellowcard]

It seems like an awful lot of matches to get rid of 4 teams now especially when most people can already predict the 4 teams that will drop out anyway. I think attendances will dwindle off until the knock out games now.

[seafoid]

It seems like an awful lot of matches to get rid of 4 teams now especially when most people can already predict the 4 teams that will drop out anyway. I think attendances will dwindle off until the knock out games now.

they are taking 3 rounds to get rid of 4 and 4 rounds to get rid of 8 and 5 rounds to get rid of 12

[weareros]

I think the Provincials need to be seeded. That would cut out 1 of this year's non D1/2
There has to be a policy on promotion from D3. Last year they were included. This year not.
If there is a case where say you have 2 extra there could be a preliminary round.

The next thing is the seeding
The first seeds of provincial winners are fine.
the second seeds  would be better if provincials were seeded but they still arse up the ranking in seeds 3 and 4 .

One of the problems of using the provincials is that Ulster and Connacht have most of the D1 teams. So you can have a losing team that is one of the strongest regardless of  who is in the provincial final. Having Mayo and Tyrone as third seeds doesn't make sense.
The only way to ensure a decent ranking system is to base Groups 2-4 on league ranking.

Doing it half and half -ie half provincial (1 and 2) and League (3 and 4 ) is doing it arseways.

So Group 2 with Galway, probably Armagh and Tyrone has 3 of this year's D1 while Group 3 with Dublin, Sligo, Ros and the Flourbags has just 1
They could also adjust the groups for balance.

If you look at how they started the year, it's 3 to 1. But if you look at how they ended, it's 2-2 as regards Division 1. The ranking was based on how the league ended. While Dublin/Armagh did not need to qualify by league ranking, Dublin still had a higher ranking than Armagh (as did Derry) by virtue of their promotion to Division 1. The final Top 8 ranking was Mayo, Galway, Roscommon, Tyrone, Kerry, Monaghan, Dublin, Derry. The bigger inbalance is caused by the provincial losers getting second seed status, with the exception of Ulster. Derry were 8, Armagh 9 - and going down further, Donegal 10, Louth 11, Cork 12, Kildare 13, Clare 15, Westmeath 20, Sligo 23 in the ranking.

[Blowitupref]

To finish top in their groups

Group 1
Kerry 1/3
Mayo 5/2
Cork 16/1
Louth 33/1

Group 2
Galway 8/13
Tyrone 11/4
Armagh 7/2
Westmeath 80/1

Group 3
Dublin 1/5
Roscommon 11/2
Kildare 7/1
Sligo 100/1

Group 4
Derry 3/10
Monaghan 10/3
Donegal 12/1
Clare 20/1

[armaghniac]

I think the Provincials need to be seeded. That would cut out 1 of this year's non D1/2
There has to be a policy on promotion from D3. Last year they were included. This year not.
If there is a case where say you have 2 extra there could be a preliminary round.

The next thing is the seeding
The first seeds of provincial winners are fine.
the second seeds  would be better if provincials were seeded but they still arse up the ranking in seeds 3 and 4 .

One of the problems of using the provincials is that Ulster and Connacht have most of the D1 teams. So you can have a losing team that is one of the strongest regardless of  who is in the provincial final. Having Mayo and Tyrone as third seeds doesn't make sense.
The only way to ensure a decent ranking system is to base Groups 2-4 on league ranking.

Doing it half and half -ie half provincial (1 and 2) and League (3 and 4 ) is doing it arseways.

So Group 2 with Galway, probably Armagh and Tyrone has 3 of this year's D1 while Group 3 with Dublin, Sligo, Ros and the Flourbags has just 1
They could also adjust the groups for balance.

If you look at how they started the year, it's 3 to 1. But if you look at how they ended, it's 2-2 as regards Division 1. The ranking was based on how the league ended. While Dublin/Armagh did not need to qualify by league ranking, Dublin still had a higher ranking than Armagh (as did Derry) by virtue of their promotion to Division 1. The final Top 8 ranking was Mayo, Galway, Roscommon, Tyrone, Kerry, Monaghan, Dublin, Derry. The bigger inbalance is caused by the provincial losers getting second seed status, with the exception of Ulster. Derry were 8, Armagh 9 - and going down further, Donegal 10, Louth 11, Cork 12, Kildare 13, Clare 15, Westmeath 20, Sligo 23 in the ranking.

Except where a team is only eliminated on penalties, in which case they should have the same seeding as the team they drew with.

[RedHand88]

Why should a team that were worse than the other team at penalties get the same seeding as them?