Murder or self-defence?

[RadioGAAGAA]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-61873171

In the CCTV footage, Joyce could be seen standing on the street, outside the house in which he was living at that time.

Holding a slash-hook in one hand and plastic bottle filled with ammonia in the other, the footage captured Joyce engaging in what the Crown described as a "street battle" against brothers Gerard, John and Jimmy McDonagh.

Does the above mean there actually was a 4th (John Paul)? Anyway, not important.

Since his arrest following the death Mr McDonagh, Joyce made the case he was acting in self-defence and was protecting himself, his family and his home from an attack by the three brothers, who were armed with a knife, bottle and garden spade.

However, the jury rejected Joyce's claims of self-defence and found him guilty of murdering Mr McDonagh.

The father-of-three was also found unanimously guilty of wounding Gerard McDonagh during the same incident, possessing two weapons, namely the slash hook and bottle of ammonia, and a charge of causing an affray.

Since I've absolutely f**k all trust in the legal system to actually deliver justice - does anyone know the backstory beyond what some intern on BBC reported?

[trailer]

All scum who should be locked up. Such behaviour on a public street. Beggars belief. The usual shitehawk apologists will appear, it's not all travellers but it's no excuse.

[general_lee]

Enoch Powell has spoken!

[Tony Baloney]

In the video the 3 lads were advancing on him.

[charlieTully]

All scum who should be locked up. Such behaviour on a public street. Beggars belief. The usual shitehawk apologists will appear, it's not all travellers but it's no excuse.

Careful now. Colm will boot you out.

[tbrick18]

I haven't really followed this story or seen the video. But from reading the article at the top of the thread, it sounds like a man at his own home got into a street fight with three other men who arrived at his property.
Self defence sounds plausible.
But the bottle of amonia and a slash-hook? Who keeps that at home?

I'm sure no-one is completely innocent, but I would say if you show up at someone's house armed with a knife or spade and you come off the worse for it, it's difficult to have sympathy.

Maybe that's harsh as I don't know the story, but it doesn't seem like a clear case of murder to me.

[nrico2006]

I haven't really followed this story or seen the video. But from reading the article at the top of the thread, it sounds like a man at his own home got into a street fight with three other men who arrived at his property.
Self defence sounds plausible.
But the bottle of amonia and a slash-hook? Who keeps that at home?

I'm sure no-one is completely innocent, but I would say if you show up at someone's house armed with a knife or spade and you come off the worse for it, it's difficult to have sympathy.

Maybe that's harsh as I don't know the story, but it doesn't seem like a clear case of murder to me.

Agreed.

[Wildweasel74]

Not that this is a court of law, but what the point of this thread here?

[full moon]

I would have thought manslaughter due to self defence. But we don't know all the evidence. Interesting as there was a lot of discussion last week about the Deliveroo driver killing a teenager by using knife but acquitted of murder and manslaughter. I would have thought both cases were manslaughter.

Wonder is there a difference in law in both jurisdictions? Seems like self defence is hard to know whats allowed and what isn't.

[Dougal Maguire]

All scum who should be locked up. Such behaviour on a public street. Beggars belief. The usual shitehawk apologists will appear, it's not all travellers but it's no excuse.

I know it's a rule of this Board that you don't try to reveal Members' identity, but by any chance might you be Pritti Patel?

[Itchy]

Im not familiar with British law but I always understood that murder was where you intentionally set out to kill someone and manslaughter was where you killed someone but didnt mean to kill them - you might have just been out to give them a hammering etc.

So striking someone on the leg with a slash hook falls into the 2nd category surely? I mean if you were trying to kill someone with it you'd hardly go for their leg?

[trailer]

All scum who should be locked up. Such behaviour on a public street. Beggars belief. The usual shitehawk apologists will appear, it's not all travellers but it's no excuse.

I know it's a rule of this Board that you don't try to reveal Members' identity, but by any chance might you be Pritti Patel?

I'll stand up for the right of minorities all day long and when I say "scum" I am only referring to those involved in this incident and no one else from the travelling community but this type of behaviour is completely unacceptable.

[RadioGAAGAA]

Not that this is a court of law, but what the point of this thread here?

https://www.gov.uk/reasonable-force-against-intruders

Very hard to know where exactly a homeowner would stand.

So has this fella been sentenced as such because he acted at the front gate? Should he have waited till they were inside the front door?

Or was there another thing we aren't aware of?


'cos if you have to wait till they are physically inside the house, then its not hard to envisage how a group of intruders could cut you off from any "dependent" family members inside the house.

[Wildweasel74]

What was to stop him doing what any normal person would do and get in the house and call the police? He hardly good intentions with a hook and a bottle of ammonia.

[Windmill abu]

At the risk of getting banned. Are they a law unto themselves. We need to stop making excuses for the traveling community. If this had happened among the "settled" population. We would be appalled and demand justice. Welcome the travellers into a multi ethnic Irish society and expect them to abide by the laws of same.