Northern nationalists versus ?

[Rossfan]

If it all comes down to Economics and the 6 Cos basket case....
Will Northern nationalists vote for a UI where they will have to pay a load of extra taxes to make up for the alleged £10,000,000,000 black hole?
It would cost every man woman and child c£5k extra per annum.

How many people in the 26 would be prepared to pay €2,200 extra to fund the feckless ones?

[marty34]

You won't be wanting a United Ireland with us in the south then?

Fair enough

You see this is where the Free Staters need a reality check. It's not your state.

It's a new Ireland to replace the two rotten states that partition brought about.

You really hate the south don't you,

calling us all free staters

Telling us the Republic of Ireland is not our state

If your indiicative of what even a small percentage of northern "nationalism" feels about the south

We might as well never have even a discussion about a United Ireland

the state is a republic of Ireland, a bastardized one obviously but clearly not the Republic

thankfully the Irish public have more sense than this board who are overwhelmingly partitionist

thinking about money when it comes to national sovereignty 

Free State ?

Rotten State?

Now Bastardized state?

And yet you keep insulting us from the south

You are more partionist than anyone here pal

Partition is reality unfortunately and it created two rotten states, one created along sectarian lines to keep one side of the community down, the other with a motive to create an elite ruling class who purged all assets and resources to enrich themselves and aligned private interests. The Free State's record on the Troubles and the blind eye it turned to the atrocities carried out in the O6 is abhorrent and it should be a great cause of shame for any citizen from the Free State with how they abandoned their northern brethern.

That seems to be an uncomfortable truth for guys like you, Ross and Sid and all the airbrushing in the world can't turn back the hands of time.

Keep going son

You are doing a great job of convincing me not to vote for a United Ireland

It's fairy obvious you don't want one either

FFS - I'd say lads like you and the others mentioned would have no intention of voting for a re-united Ireland.

This fake Trumpism of "you're doing a great job of convincing me NOT to..."  FFS.

I don't have to show my Republican credentials to you or anyone else

Nordies whinging about being left behind by the big bad south.

It's a pity we couldn't get men up to ye in 1919/20 to drive the Brits out seeing as ye weren't men enough to do it yereselves

FFS..my daddy is bigger than your daddy.

Embarrassing post.  Very clearly you'll not be voting for a re-united Ireland.

[sid waddell]

Economic and infrastructure unification on the island will come before any official unification via a border poll.  In case some have not noticed, both economic and infrastructure alignment, north and south, are well under way.  Brexit will accelerate it further.

So when it comes to a vote on re-unification, it should be a no-brainer for the vast majority of people on the island.

Sid, any state where the vast majority of its citizens recognise it, where the international community recognises it, is not a 'bastardised' state.

I agree with most of this but there is a danger of underestimating 1 million Unionists

Many of those unionists have already copped on that the six county statelet is unsustainable - time and time again they are sold out by the british. English nationalists don't want to waste their money in Europe, nor do they want to see it continue wasted on the sic counties.

You would be surprised how many have already got their Irish passports. When re-unification is achieved, I look forward to being able to celebrate all cultures in our land, including Orangism.

There's nothing inherently unsustainable about the North

It has poor governance which is a situation which there is no automatic predestination about

In the same way we have rabble rousing rhetoric here about duty to fellow Irish people, ie. appeals to nationalism rooted in the idea of there being an inherent connection between people and soil, one should not think that Unionists will not think that way too

NI is a much poorer economy than ROI, we have virtually nothing outside public sector

Yes but the Republic itself used to be dirt poor

That did not mean it was inherently unsustainable

The Republic has had better governance for the last 60 years plus, which enabled better economic development - this is why it is now richer than the North and why the North has lagged behind

Governance structures are decisions made by people

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

Economic and infrastructure unification on the island will come before any official unification via a border poll.  In case some have not noticed, both economic and infrastructure alignment, north and south, are well under way.  Brexit will accelerate it further.

So when it comes to a vote on re-unification, it should be a no-brainer for the vast majority of people on the island.

Sid, any state where the vast majority of its citizens recognise it, where the international community recognises it, is not a 'bastardised' state.

I agree with most of this but there is a danger of underestimating 1 million Unionists

Many of those unionists have already copped on that the six county statelet is unsustainable - time and time again they are sold out by the british. English nationalists don't want to waste their money in Europe, nor do they want to see it continue wasted on the sic counties.

You would be surprised how many have already got their Irish passports. When re-unification is achieved, I look forward to being able to celebrate all cultures in our land, including Orangism.

There's nothing inherently unsustainable about the North

It has poor governance which is a situation which there is no automatic predestination about

In the same way we have rabble rousing rhetoric here about duty to fellow Irish people, ie. appeals to nationalism rooted in the idea of there being an inherent connection between people and soil, one should not think that Unionists will not think that way too

NI is a much poorer economy than ROI, we have virtually nothing outside public sector

Yes but the Republic itself used to be dirt poor

That did not mean it was inherently unsustainable

The Republic has had better governance for the last 60 years plus, which enabled better economic development - this is why it is now richer than the North and why the North has lagged behind

Governance structures are decisions made by people

Agreed.

[sid waddell]

NI is inherently unsustainable. Politically, economically, socially. Sid you don't actually think NI is a successfully functioning entity, do you?

It's not particularly successful

It's better than it was

The Troubles had a lot to do with it, as well as poor governance

Socially, little would change in the north in a united Ireland, certainly not in the near to medium term

Politically and economically I'd expect it would improve a bit, but there's nothing inherent in the UK political system that would prevent an improvement of governance there - just attitudes to governance

Similar attitudes in London prevent the north of England and South Wales and Scotland flourishing

[sid waddell]

- Some unionists will welcome a united Ireland.
- Some unionists will re-locate to the motherland.
- Some unionists will fight.
- Some unionists are currently indifferent to a united Ireland.

What are the southern political parties doing to win over the latter group?

I can't see a Sinn Fein led government in the Republic be a help to the prospects of a united Ireland, it would scare a lot of moderate Unionists away from the idea

This is the paradox, those most devoted to the idea of a united Ireland are those most likely to scupper the prospect

If you wanted to persuade moderate Unionists or on the fencers of the merits of a united Ireland, the reality is you would need the most non-threatening voices, those seen as anti-nationalist or commonly denigrated as "West Brits" to lead the argument

If you had David Cullinane and Brian Stanley leading the argument down here, the northern vote would be a dead duck

So, let's say for the laugh the twin referendums were in six months' time

You'd get Neale Richmond, Mairead McGuinness, Heather Humphreys and John Bruton to lead the Yes campaign down here

You'd get civil society voices like Bono, Lord Mountcharles and David Norris

You might get prominent English people in Ireland like Tracy Piggott or people originally from the PUL community down here, maybe George Hamilton, maybe a few of the rugby team, Tommy Bowe etc., Brian O'Driscoll has already been up at an Orange march, he got dog's abuse for it down here from the Shinner supporters but these are the sort of micro-engagements you need

You'd involve the Church of Ireland/Protestant community down here in an outsize way, especially the Archbishop of Dublin

Up north you'd get the SDLP to play a prominent role and put Claire Hanna front and centre, you'd reach out to moderate Unionists like Sylvia Hermon and Mike Nesbitt, you'd reach out to all Unionists in the most respectful way even if you weren't going to get them to vote for you

Jarlath Burns is a sensible enough and persuasive voice, he'd surely be involved

EU and US voices would help to make the economic case

Everything would be focussed on creating the most constructive, pragmatic and economically sound case possible and nationalist rabble rousing would need to be told to get lost

[grounded]

Economic and infrastructure unification on the island will come before any official unification via a border poll.  In case some have not noticed, both economic and infrastructure alignment, north and south, are well under way.  Brexit will accelerate it further.

So when it comes to a vote on re-unification, it should be a no-brainer for the vast majority of people on the island.

Sid, any state where the vast majority of its citizens recognise it, where the international community recognises it, is not a 'bastardised' state.

I agree with most of this but there is a danger of underestimating 1 million Unionists

Many of those unionists have already copped on that the six county statelet is unsustainable - time and time again they are sold out by the british. English nationalists don't want to waste their money in Europe, nor do they want to see it continue wasted on the sic counties.

You would be surprised how many have already got their Irish passports. When re-unification is achieved, I look forward to being able to celebrate all cultures in our land, including Orangism.

There's nothing inherently unsustainable about the North

It has poor governance which is a situation which there is no automatic predestination about

In the same way we have rabble rousing rhetoric here about duty to fellow Irish people, ie. appeals to nationalism rooted in the idea of there being an inherent connection between people and soil, one should not think that Unionists will not think that way too

NI is a much poorer economy than ROI, we have virtually nothing outside public sector

Yes but the Republic itself used to be dirt poor

That did not mean it was inherently unsustainable

The Republic has had better governance for the last 60 years plus, which enabled better economic development - this is why it is now richer than the North and why the North has lagged behind

How could you have good governance in a state that was deliberately set up, so as one religious grouping had an inheritant superiority over the other in terms of employment, housing, education, wealth etc ( Sid I'm talking about the North here btw, there are definite questions to be answered as to how protestants were treated on the free state).
      As to the fact that Governance structures are decisions made by people.
       Well i suppose it certainly would have helped to have a have a vote back in the day. 
       The Republic had 90%+ Catholic Irish majority(im sorry to be so blunt/crude as i hate to take religion into things but thems the facts).
          I wouldnt say they did a fantastic job with governance (with a whole generation forced to emigrate and the financial collapse and IMF bailout more recently) and the role the Catholic church played in the state. But thats an entirely different argument.
           But they did a dam site better than this shit hole. I will say it again how could you get good governance in an apartheid state?
           Northern Ireland was and is a failed state. There is no future in it. There will more than likely be a UI, demographics will decide it. You know it as well as I. But its up to us as a people to convince or at least make it more palatable for a sizeable chunk of the Unionist population to accept that.
       

[sid waddell]

Economic and infrastructure unification on the island will come before any official unification via a border poll.  In case some have not noticed, both economic and infrastructure alignment, north and south, are well under way.  Brexit will accelerate it further.

So when it comes to a vote on re-unification, it should be a no-brainer for the vast majority of people on the island.

Sid, any state where the vast majority of its citizens recognise it, where the international community recognises it, is not a 'bastardised' state.

I agree with most of this but there is a danger of underestimating 1 million Unionists

Many of those unionists have already copped on that the six county statelet is unsustainable - time and time again they are sold out by the british. English nationalists don't want to waste their money in Europe, nor do they want to see it continue wasted on the sic counties.

You would be surprised how many have already got their Irish passports. When re-unification is achieved, I look forward to being able to celebrate all cultures in our land, including Orangism.

There's nothing inherently unsustainable about the North

It has poor governance which is a situation which there is no automatic predestination about

In the same way we have rabble rousing rhetoric here about duty to fellow Irish people, ie. appeals to nationalism rooted in the idea of there being an inherent connection between people and soil, one should not think that Unionists will not think that way too

NI is a much poorer economy than ROI, we have virtually nothing outside public sector

Yes but the Republic itself used to be dirt poor

That did not mean it was inherently unsustainable

The Republic has had better governance for the last 60 years plus, which enabled better economic development - this is why it is now richer than the North and why the North has lagged behind

How could you have good governance in a state that was deliberately set up, so as one religious grouping had an inheritant superiority over the other in terms of employment, housing, education, wealth etc ( Sid I'm talking about the North here btw, there are definite questions to be answered as to how protestants were treated on the free state).
      As to the fact that Governance structures are decisions made by people.
       Well i suppose it certainly would have helped to have a have a vote back in the day. 
       The Republic had 90%+ Catholic Irish majority(im sorry to be so blunt/crude as i hate to take religion into things but thems the facts).
          I wouldnt say they did a fantastic job with governance (with a whole generation forced to emigrate and the financial collapse and IMF bailout more recently) and the role the Catholic church played in the state. But thats an entirely different argument.
           But they did a dam site better than this shit hole. I will say it again how could you get good governance in an apartheid state?
           Northern Ireland was and is a failed state. There is no future in it. There will more than likely be a UI, demographics will decide it. You know it as well as I. But its up to us as a people to convince or at least make it more palatable for a sizeable chunk of the Unionist population to accept that.
       

Sectarian and irredentist politics is the problem, it breeds suspicion and when you have terminal suspicion, you have a failed state

Part of the problem is that one of SF's core principles is that NI can only ever be a failed state - so they have a vested interest that it will always fail - it's pretty disastrous for governance that one of the ruling parties has an interest that the state is a failure, isn't it, they don't take their seats in Westminster therefore no representation

Then the other main ruling party are flat earther culture warriors whose greatest ambition is to live to see somebody else invent a time machine so they can go back and live in 1690

So the first thing you do is get rid of SF and the DUP and only the voters can do that

Party politics which runs along the lines it does in the north is a disaster - but clearly a UUP-SDLP coalition would be better than SF-DUP, like don't tell me NI would not have been better served with Mike Nesbitt and Colum Eastwood at the helm rather than Punch and Judy

I've often wondered what you do if you're a left-wing Unionist, there's nobody to vote for, maybe the Green Party, do People Before Profit up there have any Protestant candidates

Plenty of other places have had sectarian or ethnic strife and overcome it, Liverpool used to be a deeply sectarian city but now has a fierce sense of collective identity and sectarianism is basically non-existent, you make a collective decision as a people that everybody has a vested interest in making society work rather than it failing

NI has only ever been imagined as a transient thing - it's a bit like the way transient renters have no vested interest in taking care of a property - maybe if it went independent it would have a vested interest in being a success rather than a failure

[grounded]

The other thing i meant to add is, allowing any opinion by another poster on here to affect/influence a sincere position you have on an important/fundamental
Belief is absolutely bollix no matter how much they appear to wind you up.
       I think sometimes we give ourselves too much importance on here. As if a few anonymous posters on a Gaa website represent the opinions/position of an entire swathe of north and south....we dont.
        Its like arguing with your man down in your local who never agrees with anyone(oh Christ i'd love a few pints down in the fuckin pub! )

[Angelo]

Unionism cannot be reasoned with.

Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.

[Milltown Row2]

Unionism cannot be reasoned with.

Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.

It's changed, if I look at unionism from the day I started work (88) to now, it's changed dramatically, it still needs to change, but so do republicans.

[dublin7]

Unionism cannot be reasoned with.

Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.

Die hard republicanism can't be reasoned with either. One of the reasons I can't see a united Ireland is due to to the die hards on both sides who'll refuse to meet in the middle.

[Rossfan]

I wonder what's Angelo's solution to the c45% of the 6 Co population that are Unionist/British?

[Angelo]

Unionism cannot be reasoned with.

Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.

It's changed, if I look at unionism from the day I started work (88) to now, it's changed dramatically, it still needs to change, but so do republicans.

Why are working class communities like Tigers Bay and the Shankhill returning DUP candidates who are completely at odds with those from working class communities? It's always been the same with unionism, they cut their nose off to spite their face.

[Angelo]

Unionism cannot be reasoned with.

Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.

Die hard republicanism can't be reasoned with either. One of the reasons I can't see a united Ireland is due to to the die hards on both sides who'll refuse to meet in the middle.

Ah yes, another utterly ignorant free stater with the "both as bad as each other" argument. The thing is you don't have the slightest clue of what you are talking about.

If you want to know anything about unionism, look at Brexit. Unionists cutting their nose off to spite their face and show what uber Brits they are.