Northern nationalists versus ?

[tonto1888]

Ah, so you do want oppression of women!

You didn't answer about the LGBTQ+ community

Bland PR-like statements don't cut it, especially when accompanied by US evangelical style craziness

Nope, I respect how valuable human life is unlike you.

That would obviously explain your support for the PIRA 

Clearly as they were fighting a government that routinely opened fire on unarmed civilians because they were taking to the streets to demand their civil rights.

The free state establishment has much blood on its hands when it comes to the troubles.

Those 644 civilians the PIRA killed were key members of that government of course

The "elite", or something

To cite dead civilians on the streets of Derry as a legitimate justification for 644 other dead civilians is Orwellian

You're pontificating about civilians being killed when you're the only poster on here who defended the IRA that won your rotten state its independence going around murdering civilians.

You are at odds with yourself here, as I predicted, you have routinely shown yourself to be morally bankrupt once again.

So the Republic of Ireland is in your words a "Rotten state"?

Can I take it then you won't want to be a part of a United Ireland then?

You've more in common in denigrating the Republic of Ireland with Jim Alister than you do with me.

A UI doesn't = ROI + NI. I dont want NI to be merged into ROI structures, I want a New Ireland.

You described us in the south as being part of a "rotten state"

Is insulting us part of the grand plan to make us vote for a United ireland after the unity vote is won in the North?

I presumed we were all on the same side,maybe we ain't

1. No, that was Angelo, I was jumping on a point just.
2. I don't ever expect to see a UI. In the confines of a polling booth I wouldn't be convinced that ROI voters would vote for it,  I also think there's a huge number of 'nationalists' in NI who would do the same tbh - nevermind the Unionist population.
3. If Scotland goes the chances improve, but then the New Ireland conversation has to be had. I dont see the ROI being comfortable giving up it's structure to accommodate the New Ireland.

I think the Republic would vote comfortably for it because Sinn Fein would likely have the good sense to step aside from the campaign, well, I think they probably would

The campaign would likely be led by Fine Gael people, people like Neale Richmond, the people who get called "West Brits"

Nah, your the main west brit Sid. I've much much more respect for Northern unionists who have a genuine British heritage than a weasel like you.

"West Brit", "weasel", thanks for the abuse as always, well argued, articulate as always

Presume you'll be voting against a united Ireland when the time comes because you'll have to share it with a lot of people whose opinions you don't like but are totally unable to argue against

That could be a real problem for you, although I suspect it could be a bigger problem for those on the wrong side of your grunting

To be honest one would nearly be tempted to also vote against a united Ireland after reading bigoted moronic blatherings like yours - I can certainly imagine such gammonology being a real turn off for a lot of people

It'd be absolutely hilarious if the north voted for unification but the south didn't - just to see the look on your face

Luckily for you I don't vote on that basis

In the words of Kevin Bridges, you're the sort of person who if one had the misfortune to come across them in the pub, the only reasonable reaction would be to stand up, pat them on the back and say "have a good night, mate"

You know he is from the south, right?

[Snapchap]

It's weird that you're so pro-PIRA and yet are so anti-old-IRA

Speaking of the Old IRA, would you describe their campaign as a "civilian/sectarian murder campaign", Sid?

In your own time there, Sid.

[Rossfan]

+1

If you consider yourself Irish, then you have no choice but to vote for Irish Unity ... to do anything other than vote for unity, well you'd be a hypocrite devoid of any self esteem.

That's some sweeping statement!!!

[sid waddell]

Anybody that calls themselves Irish, but votes against reunification is an embarrassment as a person, and an embarrassment to their country.

+1

If you consider yourself Irish, then you have no choice but to vote for Irish Unity ... to do anything other than vote for unity, well you'd be a hypocrite devoid of any self esteem.

Rabble rousing shite

What you are doing is - you are telling people that nationalism should override all other concerns that anybody might have

Are you saying anybody in Scotland who voted against Scottish independence is not Scottish?

Are you saying the Welsh are not Welsh?

Are you saying the Serbs in Bosnia are not Serb?

What if you consider yourself British (or United Kingdomish) and Irish?

Are you saying that if there was a vote for a united Ireland, that any person in the North who considered themselves British would then have a duty to reject this vote?

What if somebody who considered themselves British decided to vote for a united Ireland based on economic interests, or any other interests?

Would they then be a "traitor to their people"?

Would Sinn Fein be traitors if they took their seats in Westminster?

Are Ian Marshall and Gordon Wilson traitors to "their people" because they took seats in the Irish Seanad?

There is no inherent state of nature in which there is a political all-island state called Ireland, or any manufactured political entity for that matter

There is no inherent state of nature where there is an unchanging nation state called Germany, with unchanging borders

Or France, or Spain, or Catalonia, or the Basque Country, or the United Kingdom, or the United States of America

[sid waddell]

You won't be wanting a United Ireland with us in the south then?

Fair enough

You see this is where the Free Staters need a reality check. It's not your state.

It's a new Ireland to replace the two rotten states that partition brought about.

You really hate the south don't you,

calling us all free staters

Telling us the Republic of Ireland is not our state

If your indiicative of what even a small percentage of northern "nationalism" feels about the south

We might as well never have even a discussion about a United Ireland

the state is a republic of Ireland, a bastardized one obviously but clearly not the Republic

thankfully the Irish public have more sense than this board who are overwhelmingly partitionist

thinking about money when it comes to national sovereignty 

Every nation state is "bastardised"

To say otherwise is to say that the concept of the nation state is something natural

But it isn't, it's a man made construct, it's artificial

All nation states and political entities are artificial

County Mayo is artificial, Northern Ireland is artificial, the Republic of Ireland is artificial, the United Kingdom is artificial, and so would any form of united Ireland be

[sid waddell]

It's why I say this is a generational thing or two maybe before that hurt is gone..

I've always asked for a truth commission for the north, a period of opening and closing wounds, allowing those that are still grieving and angry about lost relatives/loved ones.

Wiping the slate clean, starting over. The hurt shown by both sides needs to be acknowledged and moved on.

If Sid you'd tone down your attitude I'd accept some of your views, but they are too extreme, and for someone who beliefs come across as left of centre you make a big hole for yourself and paint a bad picture for us Nordies of how the general south view the north.

As for SF, they'll change, they have to and have changed since the early 80's, whether they will be the party (I doubt it) that'll lead a UI is questionable, as unionist won't go for it.

What's extreme about my views?

[Milltown Row2]

Within my group I'd be viewed as someone who'd think about it first before voting, personally that's not the case. I'd prefer to involve both sides of things before making a decision.

The thing though about having the opportunity to vote to be part of something that I feel I'm already but this would copper fasten it, is too much to waste.

And if that ballot came about, I doubt there would be any that could vote to stay in the union..

Maybe some personal reasons, money being the main one, the percentage of that person would be minimal.

Ten years might be right time, going early could set it back

[balladmaker]

Economic and infrastructure unification on the island will come before any official unification via a border poll.  In case some have not noticed, both economic and infrastructure alignment, north and south, are well under way.  Brexit will accelerate it further.

So when it comes to a vote on re-unification, it should be a no-brainer for the vast majority of people on the island.

Sid, any state where the vast majority of its citizens recognise it, where the international community recognises it, is not a 'bastardised' state.

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

Economic and infrastructure unification on the island will come before any official unification via a border poll.  In case some have not noticed, both economic and infrastructure alignment, north and south, are well under way.  Brexit will accelerate it further.

So when it comes to a vote on re-unification, it should be a no-brainer for the vast majority of people on the island.

Sid, any state where the vast majority of its citizens recognise it, where the international community recognises it, is not a 'bastardised' state.

I agree with most of this but there is a danger of underestimating 1 million Unionists

[Rossfan]

There's hardly a million any more Fear?
Balladmaker your point about non "bastardused State" needs to be addressed to the Angelos of the 6 Counties as well as Sid.

[sid waddell]

What if Brexit turned out to be a roaring success? I don't think it will, just putting out the hypothetical

I think you'd see support for a united Ireland go down

The assumption that support for a united Ireland will go up is based on the effective economic failure of Northern Ireland and indeed the United Kingdom

It's also sort of based on Scotland going independent first - that an integral part of the UK will decide to break the link first, so effectively there will be no UK to remain part of

But what if the SNP lost another independence referendum?

What if a progressive Labour government got in in Britain, the Brexiteers became a busted flush, and the UK rejoining the EU started to look likely, or actually happened

What then

Economic factors are and will definitely continue to be very important

It's a bit shit when one of the main parties in power in NI has as its raison d'etre the notion that the political entity in which it exists is a failed state and should remain that way - and that its overriding nationalist political goal depends on that failure

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

There's hardly a million any more Fear?
Balladmaker your point about non "bastardused State" needs to be addressed to the Angelos of the 6 Counties as well as Sid.

1.8 million in NI, id say very least 900k

[sid waddell]

Economic and infrastructure unification on the island will come before any official unification via a border poll.  In case some have not noticed, both economic and infrastructure alignment, north and south, are well under way.  Brexit will accelerate it further.

So when it comes to a vote on re-unification, it should be a no-brainer for the vast majority of people on the island.

Sid, any state where the vast majority of its citizens recognise it, where the international community recognises it, is not a 'bastardised' state.

The vast majority of people on the island do not recognise a political united Ireland

They recognise that the Republic and the North are separate and that this will continue until such time as both vote to change that situation

So under your criteria, the 26 county Republic is not bastardised, and neither is the North

In reality though all states are bastardised because they are arbitrary lines drawn on a map

Germany is a bastardised creation, so is Poland, what used to be part of Germany is now Poland

[Orior]

Economic and infrastructure unification on the island will come before any official unification via a border poll.  In case some have not noticed, both economic and infrastructure alignment, north and south, are well under way.  Brexit will accelerate it further.

So when it comes to a vote on re-unification, it should be a no-brainer for the vast majority of people on the island.

Sid, any state where the vast majority of its citizens recognise it, where the international community recognises it, is not a 'bastardised' state.

I agree with most of this but there is a danger of underestimating 1 million Unionists

Many of those unionists have already copped on that the six county statelet is unsustainable - time and time again they are sold out by the british. English nationalists don't want to waste their money in Europe, nor do they want to see it continue wasted on the sic counties.

You would be surprised how many have already got their Irish passports. When re-unification is achieved, I look forward to being able to celebrate all cultures in our land, including Orangism.

[imtommygunn]

Some of them wouldn't go down without a fight I suspect though and wouldn't exactly be celebrating

Brexit looks in no way favourable- particularly for the north.