Bobby Sands Movie

[SammyG]

I have said, for the millionth time, he is listed as OC of the Belfast Brigade in biographies, memorials etc. Obviously this isn't proof that would stand up in a court of law but it has never been denied, either by his family or the Shinners spin machine. He also continued the role once he was in Long Kesh.

Where? What memorials? What biographies? I've been to a few memorials and he's only ever listed as 'Vol'. I've read the biographies and they don't ever mention him being OC of anything. I was reading the other night that the OC of the unit the day he was arrested was a woman (later killed in Gibraltar I suspect), so why would the Belfast OC be on an operation and taking orders from a subordinate?

The woman who died in Gibraltar would have been 15 in 1972, so I think it's fairly unlikely that she was the OC of the Belfast Provos, but that was a good try.

[Donagh]

I have said, for the millionth time, he is listed as OC of the Belfast Brigade in biographies, memorials etc. Obviously this isn't proof that would stand up in a court of law but it has never been denied, either by his family or the Shinners spin machine. He also continued the role once he was in Long Kesh.

Where? What memorials? What biographies? I've been to a few memorials and he's only ever listed as 'Vol'. I've read the biographies and they don't ever mention him being OC of anything. I was reading the other night that the OC of the unit the day he was arrested was a woman (later killed in Gibraltar I suspect), so why would the Belfast OC be on an operation and taking orders from a subordinate?

The woman who died in Gibraltar would have been 15 in 1972, so I think it's fairly unlikely that she was the OC of the Belfast Provos, but that was a good try.

I didn't say she was. I said she was OC of the unit involved in the Dunmurry operation when Sands was arrested (1976). You are the one saying Sands was Belfast OC.

[stephenite]

Half say that he was OC for Belfast, the other half say he was OC for Twinbrook (which nobody hasn't ever been proven) which they believe is the same thing. Please keep up.

Does it really matter - he was still a member of an illegal organisation, and all members of that organisation have to share the blame for any atrocities committed, whether or not they were actually involved is a moot point in my view.

[stephenite]

So if a member of the GAA in Wexford murders 24 people tomorrow, you will present yourself to the Gardai?

Rubbish response - try to stay on the point and not drag the thread into the mire with childish responses

The GAA is not an illegal organisation that uses violence to acheive it's aims - if a GAA member in Wexford decides to murder anyone he does not do it becuase he is a member of the GAA but for other reasons.

[SammyG]

You don't know what I was getting at. SammyG's people are split down the middle on this. Half say that he was OC for Belfast, the other half say he was OC for Twinbrook (neither of which has ever been proven) which they believe is the same thing. Please keep up.

Who in the name of fcuk are my 'people'? And why do they believe that Twinbrook and Belfast are the same thing?

[gallsman]

Was also going to ask who "Sammy's people" are. Prods? Unionists? Either way, does it matter a flying f**k?

Tell the truth Gallsman, you avoided this thread because you couldn't give a flying f**k either way. You're happy to sit in your house on the Malone Road (or not far off it) and call people idiots for commenting on things that have effected their lives. So waddle back to Daddy and tell him what the bold people are saying.

Aw, you and your harsh, severe little life. Grow the f**k up and actually try posting something worthwhile. I could be wrong but, from what you say, you don't strike me as a member of, or someone close to, the Sands family. So how has this effected (sic) your life. Everyone has feelings about the hunger strikes. You think because I'm not a little spide driving my skanger banger complete with white adidas tracksuit, kn**ker 'tache and fake burberry cap that I'm any different?

[his holiness nb]

Jaysus lads calm down, back to the film eh?

[Donagh]

Jaysus lads calm down, back to the film eh?

Well considering it's to be made by Turner prize wining artist Steve McQueen, we're either going to get high speed motorbike chases around Lisburn as Bobby breaks for the border, or some psychedelic, art school, Waiting for Godot/Thatcher type nonsense.

[gallsman]

Jaysus lads calm down, back to the film eh?

I apologise of course. Stubborness just gets on my tits is all. Particularly ill informed and illogical stubborness...

[his holiness nb]

I do understand, I'm not usually one to resist a rise.

[Main Street]

Like Donagh I hope it doesn't turn out to be some arty farty shite,  an esotheric tome on the decay of the body, isolation of the spirit and a soul in crisis.
I can't think of too many prison political dramas that were rock solid sincere as well as good drama.
There was a South African one, a made for TV  movie  which was excellent, a gripping minimalist affair with Louis Gosset jr and Eric Stoltz?
Louis was investigating the conduct of a top prison officer and his role in the death of a prisoner, Louis turns the tables and twist the methaphorical rope on the guard's neck tighter and tighter, can't remember the name. Made at least 10 years ago.

Who is writing the screeenplay? Where is Costa Gavras? he'd be made for the job.
   

[man in black]

The clownthat is sammyg has made up stories in the past and he will do so again, he will never admit to being wrong about Sand's status in the RA because it does not suit his agenda.

What agenda? Sands was the OC of the Belfast IRA, at a time when they were slaughtering people on a daily basis, this has been documented many times

For those few who insist that sammy has not a bigotted bone in his body................Take a redner.

Aye you're right, being opposed to the celebration of sectarian slaughter definitely makes me a bigot. 

From your own list there sammy you can hardly argue that those murders were sectarian.

[Donagh]

Sammy's list is a load of bollox anyway. If he actually took the time to read any of the biographies he would know that Sands was based in Twinbrook which in 1972 was a Stickie stronghold. The Provo unit there were all very young, inexperienced and had no weapons. Their orders were to keep their heads low and stay out of the way of the Stickies. Their job was to provide money and occasionally transport for others.

[Jim_Murphy_74]

SammyG may be wrong in his allegation about Sands' role in the IRA.  In particular being OC in the Maze would not be a reflection of his role on the outside.  This fact is refered to in Ed Moloney's & Peter Taylor's works on the area.   It is also refered to in Sean Callaghan's autobiography (for what that's worth!) and I think in one of Adam's books.  An OC was appointed in prisons and all were under his command regardless of their external rank.   That is a fact, in as much as you can know facts about secret armies.

I couldn't be arsed reading the whole 6 pages of this thread but I'm going to hazard a guess as to what the argument is about: Sands, sectarian or not.

To his defenders here:
a) He was a member of an organisation that carried out many, many sectarian acts.  You can argue till the cows come home but there are too many incidents of targetting civilians and attacks of a sectarian nature to argue otherwise.  I know supporters will trot out that their aims weren't and the closet supporters will state that their methods wrong but aims honourable.  At the end of the day you have got to accept that unionists like SammyG saw these activities as sectarian and an attack on their community.  He has got good reason, get over it.

2) The attacks on the Balmorrall furniture store had a sectarian edge to them and saw people killed (although not the particular instance Sands was arrested).  My local Sinn Féin councillor told me that these were attacks on economic targets they were not sectarian, but that they had to hit Protestant targets so as not to alienate their support base.  Fair enough but that is admitting the business targetted were protestant so in effect these were sectarian attacks.

So regardless of your own views, you should be able to see the validity of SammyG's views.  State your objections but don't vilify the guy for holding what are reasonable views.

To SammyG,

Republican supporters do not see the IRA campaign as sectarian, the fire-bombing of economics targets as sectarian and hence Bobby Sands was not sectarian.   Therefore the only issue here is his death for the 5 demands and so he must be a hero and man of principle. 

So not matter how you argue about his position in the IRA it won't change these people's view of Bobby Sands.

/Jim.

[ziggysego]

Sensible post Jim. Can't see any faults in your words.