Dublin v Tyrone. 11/02/17. Croke Park, Dublin.

[southtyronegael]

[/quote]

I actually think Tyrone are going about it all wrong. Tyrone's forwards might not be top class but they aren't bad and are probably better than most other teams. However, asking them to run up and down Croke Park and harry opponents all day is bound to impact upon their accuracy and distance. The one thing that is almost certain is that Tyrone won't beat Dublin playing like they do. That system is a busted flush and will only keep you close to the big teams, especially if you don't have 2 or 3 special forwards. But a full strength Dublin, Kerry or Mayo will breakdown a massed defence in the height of summer and Tyrone's style means Tyrone supporters will be on here bemoaning some bad misses and balls dropped short after a 1 or 2 point defeat to a big gun.

I think a more self confident and adventurous approach would serve Tyrone better.
[/quote] not sure where your from zulu but thats an excellent post and i totally agreee with you. couldnt have said it better myself

[BennyHarp]

Jeepers lads, show a bit of wit would ye. Of course the game on Sat night tells us very little about how the same two teams would fair later on in the year. Neither team were at full strength and Tyrone lost one of their better defenders and forwards during the game.

Dublin are unbeaten in 31 games now and you would imagine they are still favourites for Sam in 2017 with Mayo and Kerry a close 2nd and 3rd as both teams have got close to them in recent years.
Last year a lot of neutrals wanted to see Tyrone play the Dubs to see could their style of play beat them but it never happened. Tyrone are a very young team who are making progress but I think we lack 1 or 2 forwards to win an AI, a bit like Mayo. The big question is can a team beat the Dubs playing that style of football without good forwards and a great free taker.

I actually think Tyrone are going about it all wrong. Tyrone's forwards might not be top class but they aren't bad and are probably better than most other teams. However, asking them to run up and down Croke Park and harry opponents all day is bound to impact upon their accuracy and distance. The one thing that is almost certain is that Tyrone won't beat Dublin playing like they do. That system is a busted flush and will only keep you close to the big teams, especially if you don't have 2 or 3 special forwards. But a full strength Dublin, Kerry or Mayo will breakdown a massed defence in the height of summer and Tyrone's style means Tyrone supporters will be on here bemoaning some bad misses and balls dropped short after a 1 or 2 point defeat to a big gun.

I think a more self confident and adventurous approach would serve Tyrone better.

I don't actually know the answer to this as I haven't seen the stats but who  created the most scoring chances on Saturday night? Given the wide count I'd probably say Tyrone. Our problem isn't that we have forwards running up and down, we create chances ok, but it is applying the finish to those chances that we create. We don't have that finisher like Steven O'Neill or Canavan as in years gone by and if we did I'd be fairly certain Mickey wouldn't have them running up and down Croke Park. Our best shooters are Harte, Donnelly, Cavannagh and Sludden. None of which (perhaps with expection of Sean) are suited to the inside forward role. To get these lads involved they need to attacking from deep positions, taking the ball facing the goal and we need our forward line moving out of their way. Attacking from deep positions enables the lads to find space that would otherwise be bottled up if lining out in a trafitional formation. It doesn't really matter what number is on the back when it comes to attacking or defending but if we were to shift to an all out attack then I believe we wouldn't match the like of Dublin or Kerry as they make hay in the space that is created. I know it was only a league game in February but the Dubs were frustrated and knocked out of their stride for long periods last weekend. In my view, that's the way to beat them....make them play your game, knock them off their gameplan and don't let them dictate what is happening. Don't have a gun fight with them! We've come a long way down this game plan, for better or worse it's taken us to a position were we are at least competitive at the top table again. Whether it eventually brings us over the line, time will tell but I wouldn't go abandoning it now, though it would be nice to get those guys who can shoot on the ball in more dangerous positions more often!

[delgany]

Tyrone need to maintain a presence on the D.  Niall sudden made a lung bursting run near end of 2nd half but had no support in the forward line. An out ball gives the ball carriers another  option , ties up 2/3 of the opposition . All forwards have capabilities to score but not after running 50 / 60 yards.
They can rotate this to spread the work load.
Plus we need a 90% free taker on the field !

[BennyHarp]

Tyrone need to maintain a presence on the D.  Niall sudden made a lung bursting run near end of 2nd half but had no support in the forward line. An out ball gives the ball carriers another  option , ties up 2/3 of the opposition . All forwards have capabilities to score but not after running 50 / 60 yards.
They can rotate this to spread the work load.
Plus we need a 90% free taker on the field !

Definitely agree with that. Easier said than done though.

[delgany]

90% is the standard . This is achievable by practice , focus and having an established routine. Good examples in Rugby and gaelic. Dean rock pointed from outside 45 , he put this down to his practice routine.
No tyrone player has that focus at the minute. Too many easy frees inside the 30 M are missed. This has been a problem for a number of years. Can't understand why this hasn't been sorted

[ONeill]

That was a phenomenal point by Rock in those conditions.

[The Bearded One]

That was a phenomenal point by Rock in those conditions.

Rock is a phenomenal free taker in fairness, real quality. That was superb though all things considered.

[Fuzzman]

Finally a proper discussion on what the real problem is with Tyrone in my eyes.
Yes like so many others I'm not overly happy with the style of football we play but it sure is effective and we create a hell of a lot of scoring chances. We missed a lot against Mayo last summer and kicked 11 wides last Sat night, 8 of which was with the wind though it was a terrible night.

The way the game has gone it has become so difficult for the inside line to score from play and so if you look at Dublin and Mayo over the last few years, look how many of their scores come from frees.
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaa-statistics-the-duel-of-the-dead-ball-specialists-1.2783320

A few years back I remember a lot of my Dublin friends saying they don't think Rock is good enough to keep his place as he doesn't contribute enough from play. Nearly all good teams have at least one player who can score regularly from frees like say Bryan Sheehan did for Kerry or Cillian O'Connor. Last year we thought Ronan O'Neill was our such player, who we could maybe "carry" as long as he was knocking over the frees but he faltered and missed quite a few and so we ended up sharing it around the team. I know it's been repeated quite a lot now but if we continue down this road of playing this system but not having a top notch free taker I can't see us beating one of the top 3 teams.
Delgany said below no Tyrone player has that focus at the moment and I would agree but I can't understand why Mickey and Horse don't address this. Why not pick ONE left footed player (Peter Harte I suppose) and ONE right footed and let them hit them ALL. Not keep changing it and so they can really focus on it.
Who was hitting them on Sat night with their right foot?

[Redhand Santa]

They have gone with Harte for the left footed frees and seem to have stuck with that. They stuck with Ronan O'Neill for the majority of last year for the right footed ones but he struggles badly with the further out frees and they eventually had to try other players. We have very few right footed players other than that for the frees. I think McAliskey would have got a go this year if stayed fit. They could end up going back to Cavanagh but he can be hit and miss with the close up ones. The only other option is someone like a Mattie Donnelly but no idea what he's like at frees.

[BennyHarp]

The problem with finding a reliable free taker is not just getting someone to practice the skill as I think O'Neill, McCurry, Brennan, Morgan, Harte etc are all capable and skilled strikers of the ball but the issue is, can they perform when the pressure is applied? That temperament is the bit that can't necessarily be easily coached. I agree, practice can improve performance but you just can't recreate the pressure of a big game. Think of Canavan relishing the free kick v Armagh in 2005. We don't currently have anyone who I would be confident of converting that under those conditions but all the lads named above could kick that score on a Tuesday night in training. It's not a problem easily solved and the more it's highlighted as the year progresses the bigger the pressure on the free taker.

The lack of a reliable free taker also takes the pressure off the opposition defence as they know a reckless tackle doesn't necessarily mean a guaranteed point against. This just enables a little more aggression in the tackle and pressure on the shooter.

[Fuzzman]

I know the point you're making BennyH but I think we've got more of a problem than just the pressure kicks but also with just the bread and butter frees.
It's one thing having a free taker like Michael Murphy, McManus or Rock who quite frequently score frees from 45 yards or so and we do struggle with that but I think we also struggle with a lot of our nearer frees over the last few years.

How often are you at a Tyrone match and we get a free say 40 yards out on the left wing and you think this will definitely go over. You usually would say that if it was Rock, McManus, Murphy, C.O'Connor, Sheehan or Gooch.

RHS, last year we had Ronan O'Neill, McAliskey, McCurry, Morgan and Peter Harte all hitting frees at different stages. Big Sean was very accurate in 2008 when he was hitting them and so I'm amazed he doesn't act as captain and take responsibility or is it he wants to give youth its chance.

[BennyHarp]

I know the point you're making BennyH but I think we've got more of a problem than just the pressure kicks but also with just the bread and butter frees.
It's one thing having a free taker like Michael Murphy, McManus or Rock who quite frequently score frees from 45 yards or so and we do struggle with that but I think we also struggle with a lot of our nearer frees over the last few years.

How often are you at a Tyrone match and we get a free say 40 yards out on the left wing and you think this will definitely go over. You usually would say that if it was Rock, McManus, Murphy, C.O'Connor, Sheehan or Gooch.

RHS, last year we had Ronan O'Neill, McAliskey, McCurry, Morgan and Peter Harte all hitting frees at different stages. Big Sean was very accurate in 2008 when he was hitting them and so I'm amazed he doesn't act as captain and take responsibility or is it he wants to give youth its chance.

I don't necessarily just mean the free to win the game. Consistency at county level takes a certain mentality as the stakes are higher on every kick. You watch videos of McCurry and Morgan kicking 50s for fun but the pressure of a county game seems to get to them. I think we are actually arguing a different version of the same point here. Maybe we just have to choose a kicker and stick with him and hope he develops the consistency. It's added pressure, I suppose, knowing if you miss someone else will be given the job for the next free!

[Il Bomber Destro]

I have enjoyed the domination of the Dubs as much as the next man, but I honestly believe we would have beat them last year or if we get to meet them this year in the championship.  Its fecking Mayo we cant beat.  Some day Mayo are going to meet Tyrone in a final.  What the hell happens then?

Based on what? Give me one piece of evidence to prove this? Examle(s)?

There you go again


I'll give you some if you can tell me how to prove something that will happen in the future?

Well, this is where form comes into place. You look at results in Championship. You look at recent Ulster titles won. You look at games where they beat top sides in AI Quarter finals and Semi finals. You just can't say this team will do this and that team will do that without backing it up with solid stats? Or just because Uncle Peter said so!

It comes down to the known vs the unknown. We've seen Kerry and Mayo up against Jim Gavin's Dublin. Dublin have yet to be beaten by either in a knockout game of football. It's pretty much been the same Mayo and Kerry sides in that period, Kerry side will probably see a fair bit of change in that time period but from 2013-2016 there has been little change in the Mayo and Kerry sides.

This Tyrone side, the bulk have been on the go as established players since 2015. So there's much more scope to prove right now.

When it comes to Dublin, there's also the style aspect - the only side to topple Gavin's Dublin in a knockout game - an Ulster side, Donegal. A side with an extremely solid defensive base which were the foundations of their game plan, much like Tyrone. There's also the fact that Dublin haven't looked at all comfortable in those games against Tyrone, they have had to play the game on our terms, they don't like that. See Gavin's rattled interview and barbed comments on our style of football after.

We know how Kerry and Mayo have fared against Dublin over the past few years, we just don't know about Tyrone yet.

You seem a bit defensive about that notion though.

[Beffs]

It comes down to the known vs the unknown. We've seen Kerry and Mayo up against Jim Gavin's Dublin. Dublin have yet to be beaten by either in a knockout game of football. It's pretty much been the same Mayo and Kerry sides in that period, Kerry side will probably see a fair bit of change in that time period but from 2013-2016 there has been little change in the Mayo and Kerry sides.

This Tyrone side, the bulk have been on the go as established players since 2015. So there's much more scope to prove right now.

When it comes to Dublin, there's also the style aspect - the only side to topple Gavin's Dublin in a knockout game - an Ulster side, Donegal. A side with an extremely solid defensive base which were the foundations of their game plan, much like Tyrone. There's also the fact that Dublin haven't looked at all comfortable in those games against Tyrone, they have had to play the game on our terms, they don't like that. See Gavin's rattled interview and barbed comments on our style of football after.

We know how Kerry and Mayo have fared against Dublin over the past few years, we just don't know about Tyrone yet.

You seem a bit defensive about that notion though.

Yeah, we do. This decade, Tyrone have not made it past the semi final stage of the AI championship. In knock out games, they have failed to beat the 2 counties (Mayo and Kerry) that Dublin have beaten consistantly. So what does that tell us? It tells us that Tyrone are not as good as Mayo and Kerry are. The reason why we do not know how good Tyrone would do against Dublin, is because they have not (yet) been good enough to reach the stage of the championship, where they would actually play Dublin.

[Il Bomber Destro]

It comes down to the known vs the unknown. We've seen Kerry and Mayo up against Jim Gavin's Dublin. Dublin have yet to be beaten by either in a knockout game of football. It's pretty much been the same Mayo and Kerry sides in that period, Kerry side will probably see a fair bit of change in that time period but from 2013-2016 there has been little change in the Mayo and Kerry sides.

This Tyrone side, the bulk have been on the go as established players since 2015. So there's much more scope to prove right now.

When it comes to Dublin, there's also the style aspect - the only side to topple Gavin's Dublin in a knockout game - an Ulster side, Donegal. A side with an extremely solid defensive base which were the foundations of their game plan, much like Tyrone. There's also the fact that Dublin haven't looked at all comfortable in those games against Tyrone, they have had to play the game on our terms, they don't like that. See Gavin's rattled interview and barbed comments on our style of football after.

We know how Kerry and Mayo have fared against Dublin over the past few years, we just don't know about Tyrone yet.

You seem a bit defensive about that notion though.

Yeah, we do. This decade, Tyrone have not made it past the semi final stage of the AI championship. In knock out games, they have failed to beat the 2 counties (Mayo and Kerry) that Dublin have beaten consistantly. So what does that tell us? It tells us that Tyrone are not as good as Mayo and Kerry are. The reason why we do not know how good Tyrone would do against Dublin, is because they have not (yet) been good enough to reach the stage of the championship, where they would actually play Dublin.

This particular Tyrone side have only been around the guts of 2 years.

McShane, Bradley, Meyler, C McCann, McNulty, R Donnelly, R Brennan all debuted in 2015.

Sludden, K McGeary, Munroe, Burns, L Brennan, Hampsey made their debuts in 2016.

The likes of McCann, McNamee and McNabb only really became regulars in 2015 too.

So it's very premature to write them off as the bulk of the side are only on the road a couple of years and have plenty of scope and time to improve.

And we do not know how they will do against Dublin come the championship in summer, despite your protestations otherwise. There is no formline there where as there is with Kerry and Mayo the known vs the unknown.