Cavanagh's shimmy and the like

[EagleLord]

Just seeing this thread now.

Instantly thought of the Alan Brogan bounce where he holds the ball up high in one hand and puffs out the cheeks, takes 10 steps. Or Benny Coulters trip he got away with so often, where he'd stick his leg into the defender tripping him leaving him on his arse and Benny solos on. Just about catch it at start of this clip. Technically a black card now though isnt it?

https://youtu.be/uUFJroEo4BM

[Jinxy]

Once you can convince the ref you're seriously considering taking a hop or solo, you can go 8 steps and be fairly confident you won't be pulled on it.

[Fuzzman]

Do you not think refs let players take more steps when they're being pulled or dragged. He could give a free right away lots of times but he wants to try let the game flow. Cavanagh and McManamon are two players who often run with the ball and so attract a lot of tackles. Often players try to hold them back so the ref lets them take a few extra steps to see can they break free of the tackle.

[shawshank]

I could never understand why so many defenders bought Cavanagh's shimmy. He was obviously only right footed.

And in one sentence you have shown you never played football, or if you did you must have been brainless. The reason why is because of his pace, you stand off to close the space to Sean's right shoulder he accelerates and cleans you out, that's why most defenders can't stop it. The few who have been able to play him i.e. Sean Lockhart had pace to burn so were not frightened to close the space to Sean right side knowing they had the pace to go with him if he took them on the outside.

[Hardy]

Do you not think refs let players take more steps when they're being pulled or dragged. He could give a free right away lots of times but he wants to try let the game flow. Cavanagh and McManamon are two players who often run with the ball and so attract a lot of tackles. Often players try to hold them back so the ref lets them take a few extra steps to see can they break free of the tackle.

Which is cause and which is effect though? It seems to be a bizarre three-way Catch-33.

1. Players don't play the ball because the ball can only be tackled when they play it. If they know they can get away with eight steps instead of four, why would they present the opponent with twice the number of dispossession opportunities that they need to?

2. The would-be tackler, since he's not getting a real opportunity to tackle the ball, resorts to random slapping and pulling at the player in possession, which is also against the rules, but which he also knows he'll get away with it.

3. He gets away with it because the referee knows that if he pulls all instances of this there'll be no football played at all and, far from getting assessment points for playing to the rules, he'll be blackballed and relegated to reffing under-10s.

This is the standard GAA non-solution to a GAA problem. On the other hand, if the four-step rule is applied, the tackler knows he has a chance to tackle legally every four steps. He can even prepare and time his intervention on the fourth step. The ball carrier has less of an incentive to run with the ball and more of an incentive to kick it, as running now involves a greatly increased chance of being dispossessed legally and greatly diminished opportunities to feign being fouled.

So, with one really simple measure - i.e. actually applying one simple rule as written - we could go a major part of the way to reversing the trend that's turning football into a running game instead of a kicking game.

[Fuzzman]

Is it possible that you're overthinking it Hardy or giving both the attacker and defender too much credit for what they're doing.

To me most tacklers rush in and don't think about waiting until the right moment to tackle as they think the man will have got past them so more often than not they just leave their hand in and drag the jersey or arm back. How often do you see a defender run alongside a man waiting until he solos or bounces? More often than not they try to knock it out of his hand or shoulder him in the hope he drops it.

The question was asked why do some players get away with taking more steps than others and I think it's because they are good at keeping possession on the run but people foul them so the ref allows a few extra steps to ride the tackle. I don't think they purposely take the extra steps hoping to draw the foul from a mis-timed tackle.

[Jinxy]

I could never understand why so many defenders bought Cavanagh's shimmy. He was obviously only right footed.

And in one sentence you have shown you never played football, or if you did you must have been brainless. The reason why is because of his pace, you stand off to close the space to Sean's right shoulder he accelerates and cleans you out, that's why most defenders can't stop it. The few who have been able to play him i.e. Sean Lockhart had pace to burn so were not frightened to close the space to Sean right side knowing they had the pace to go with him if he took them on the outside.

In the good old days a well-placed shoulder/elbow into the forward's sternum was often used to discourage sudden changes in direction.

[Hardy]

Is it possible that you're overthinking it Hardy or giving both the attacker and defender too much credit for what they're doing.

To me most tacklers rush in and don't think about waiting until the right moment to tackle as they think the man will have got past them so more often than not they just leave their hand in and drag the jersey or arm back. How often do you see a defender run alongside a man waiting until he solos or bounces? More often than not they try to knock it out of his hand or shoulder him in the hope he drops it.

The question was asked why do some players get away with taking more steps than others and I think it's because they are good at keeping possession on the run but people foul them so the ref allows a few extra steps to ride the tackle. I don't think they purposely take the extra steps hoping to draw the foul from a mis-timed tackle.

I didn't mean to suggest they purposely take the extra steps hoping to draw the foul from a mis-timed tackle. I'm suggesting that knowing they can get away with eight steps means they'll take eight steps and the effect of this is that the tackler has a much diminished chance of making a legal tackle.

You're right that very few players have a proper tackling technique but I'm suggesting that if we applied the rules properly – four steps only, tackle the ball only, slapping and digging are a free – then, just as ball carriers would have an incentive to play the ball rather than run, tacklers would have both an incentive and a fair opportunity to tackle properly.

[Fuzzman]

Now there's something you don't see every day. One Meath man looking to return to the physical style of play that won them many an All Ireland and then another Meath man saying if the ref gave the frees that he should be giving then the game would be much cleaner and it would encourage lads to play the ball more and not the man.
Hardy have you been out of Meath for a long time or just have young kids playing the game now?

In the good old days, when Meath were winning things, a well-placed shoulder/elbow into the forward's sternum was often used to discourage sudden changes in direction.

four steps only, tackle the ball only, slapping and digging are a free – then, just as ball carriers would have an incentive to play the ball rather than run, tacklers would have both an incentive and a fair opportunity to tackle properly.

[Unlaoised]

MDM's awkard running style taking about 7 steps before he bounces it basket ball style elbows people out of his way.

[Unlaoised]

Just seeing this thread now.

Instantly thought of the Alan Brogan bounce where he holds the ball up high in one hand and puffs out the cheeks, takes 10 steps. Or Benny Coulters trip he got away with so often, where he'd stick his leg into the defender tripping him leaving him on his arse and Benny solos on. Just about catch it at start of this clip. Technically a black card now though isnt it?

https://youtu.be/uUFJroEo4BM

Thats a great shout I remember talking about that to other county players a few years back it was a great bit of skill and cuteness in its own way.

There was a Cork forward who used to do it aswell can't think of his name off the top of my head now!

[Jinxy]

MDM's awkard running style taking about 7 steps before he bounces it basket ball style elbows people out of his way.

Remember when you were a kid playing cowboys and indians and you ran around the garden pretending you were riding a horse?
That's how he runs.

[Croí na hÉireann]

I watched Dublin v Mayo mostly on Saturday night. Amid all the super 8 and change of All Ireland dates I must have missed the change in rule governing the number of steps allowed. Players from both sides regularly taking 8-10 steps.....it's gone beyond a joke at this stage.

Totally agree, I wasn't just getting at cavanagh. Kevin mcmanamin is another example of someone who regularly gets away with 8 or 9 steps and they're not the only players.

At least he gets pulled for overcarrying the odd time. Whereas can't remember him once getting pulled for the double hops.

[Dinny Breen]

Martin Lynch was always a good one for steps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3E1MvfCIlXA

[Jinxy]

I'm amazed he ran that far without falling over.