Donegal V Tyrone Ulster Final 17th July

[Zulu]

There is no way anybody but Donnelly knows if he did what he did intentionally or not.  For people on here to say he definitely did or didn't is tripe. The referee also can't be 100% which in itself should not result in the issuance of the card.  I don't see how Donnelly would intentionally through himself into a man in a position (star) that left him so vulnerable to a serious injury.

By that logic, half the decisions referees make shouldn't be made at all! All kinds of stuff should be just let go.

Yes, they should. IMO if a referee doesn't know if it's a foul or not then he shouldn't blow as making a mistake because you were unsighted is understandable, making one because you guessed wrong is not.

Without digging out the rule book am I right in thinking "intention" is specifically mentioned in the rule? If so the ref is  in no win situation. It's like the"deliberate" criteria for handball in soccerball and impossible to be definitive on.

I would like to see the sin bin introduced as I think it would work well.  Problem is enforcing it at club or youth level.  Hard enough to get one ref at some club games and I dint think the gaa wants to create a two tier system.

I think it's to deliberately pull down a guy, so if you attempted to tackle a guy but fouled him it shouldn't be a black, likewise if your momentum brought you into contact with an opponent and you couldn't reasonably avoid it then it shouldn't be a black. I thought Donnolly's momentum brought him into contact with McHugh and barring him diving out of the way like a man avoiding a car he couldn't have got out of the way.

[lenny]

Hard to argue with this . . .

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/eugene-mcgee-its-sad-to-watch-desecration-of-our-once-great-game-called-gaelic-football-34891368.html

Accurate up to a point. Yes, Donegal always play that way but he seems to think Tyrone have been playing diferently and adapted their tactics just for yesterday. Tyrone will play exactly the same way in croke park. it can be exciting but only if one team attacks and leaves gaps. When 2 teams adopt the same tactics like yesterday it's just like watching basketball and I hate basketball.

[J70]

That's why it's not a black card for me. I didn't see anything that would suggest it was deliberate, it might have been but unless you're 100% sure then you can't issue a card that ends a man's game.

In that case, the "late" tackle which occurs right after the release of the ball needs to be taken out of the list of offenses for black cards. Because how is anyone ever going to know someone's intent for sure? If intent, no matter how briefly considered, is the issue, and not the action.

I don't think there's any mention of 'right after the release' in the rules so I don't see why it should be taken out. For all the giving out about the black card it has been very successful if removing from the game the blatant taking out of the man after he passes and goes to get a return.

Right, but the Donnelly one WAS a case of a collision right after McHugh had released the ball. As was the one where Murphy and McCann collided in the second half, albeit Murphy had even less time to avoid it.

Where do you draw the line?

Is it a case of where the defender alters his run to block the attacker from going around him? Its not always so clear cut, especially with one look in real time. The defender could claim his altered his direction or twisted his body to protect himself from the oncoming attacker, not to block the run. IF deliberation is a factor...

[twohands!!!]

Some stats from Dont Foul

Combined Murphy & McBrearty had two shots from play in the entire match.

McBrearty
Harte
S Cavanagh

None of them managed a shot from play in the 1st half

15 mins into Donegal -Tyrone; shots from play

short wide wide wide wide wide wide wide point short blocked wide point

Its not all about volume but Tyrone had 16 shots in the second half compared to Donegal's 6. 14 from play

Game of two halves. Tyrone's shooting was abysmal 1st half (4 from 17 - 24%); Donegal's non existent in the 2nd

A lot here but look at how flat Donegal's lines are in the 2nd half. 2 shots in 30 minutes will do that

[Íseal agus crua isteach a]

Some highlights of the game here.

https://youtu.be/5ZEagqZICqA

[Main Street]

That's why it's not a black card for me. I didn't see anything that would suggest it was deliberate, it might have been but unless you're 100% sure then you can't issue a card that ends a man's game.

In that case, the "late" tackle which occurs right after the release of the ball needs to be taken out of the list of offenses for black cards. Because how is anyone ever going to know someone's intent for sure? If intent, no matter how briefly considered, is the issue, and not the action.

I don't think there's any mention of 'right after the release' in the rules so I don't see why it should be taken out. For all the giving out about the black card it has been very successful if removing from the game the blatant taking out of the man after he passes and goes to get a return.

Right, but the Donnelly one WAS a case of a collision right after McHugh had released the ball. As was the one where Murphy and McCann collided in the second half, albeit Murphy had even less time to avoid it.

Where do you draw the line?

Is it a case of where the defender alters his run to block the attacker from going around him? Its not always so clear cut, especially with one look in real time. The defender could claim his altered his direction or twisted his body to protect himself from the oncoming attacker, not to block the run. IF deliberation is a factor...

My first impression was that Donnelly didn't do enough to take the sharp end of his elbow out of harm's way and that's what the ref saw. It wasn't just a mere collision/coming together, the sharp end of his elbow smashed into the McHugh's face.
On the rules, if a ref was to follow the letter of each rule, the game would be poxed rotten. Ref's have to interpret and interpret in the blink of an eye. they have to interpret what a black card tirade is as apposed to a player venting a bit of frustration.
Intent is also an interpretation not unlike the question of deliberate hand ball in the penalty area in soccer. There are written and unwritten criteria that soccer ref's can use to determine whether a handball is deliberate and one such criteria is that an outstretched hand in an unnatural position,  making contact with the ball is a penalty offense, whether it is deliberate or not.

[Main Street]

Donnelly definitely could have avoided contact lads. He took at least one extra step into McHugh. The hands went out to make it look as though it wasn't nasty - though he isn't that kinda player in fairness. More a letting him know he was there.

I still cant get my head around why a proper sin bin isn't in place for something like that.

I agree about the sin bin. A lad shouldn't be having to leave the play for the rest of the match. for an incident like that. Refs might be more inclined to be more consistent with the black card if it only incurred a 10min cooling off period for the player. After two black cards a ref doesn't want to give anymore in fear of destroying the game. The cop out yellow could then be avoided. As it stands the black card is not fit for purpose and is a controversial point in nearly every big game!

Why have we not introduced a sin bin?? Fear of copying rugby and doing it our way mentality??

It was brought in years ago (maybe early noughties) for the league in Hurling and Football and resulted in teams playing 12 v 13, 10 v 12 at times.

Cody, Harte, Boylan and a host of managers were against it and then it got dropped in favour of the player getting substituted or the black card as we now know it... the irony is that a sin bin would work really well in todays game and actually improve it from what I can see it would increase the space available and hopefully make things more open rather than the dross we witnessed yesterday.

I don't for the life of me know how Donegal are getting slated for their approach to the game yesterday when Tyrone's was every bit as reprehensible!

Totally agree. When Donegal went 4 up after half time yesterday they actually lost the game from there through impatience. Tyrone were behind but still kept 14 players inside their own 45 metre line. Donegal kept the ball several times outside the 45 for about 2 to 3 minutes patiently probing while tyrone stood their ground. When Donegal eventually took a chance and went inside the 45 they were overturned. The mistake they made was not just continuing to keep possession outside the 45 because Tyrone seem to be so programmed to keep their positions. I honestly think Donegal couldve kept the ball outside the tyrone  for about 10-15 minutes with hardly a tackle on them and they could've run down the clock. It would've been brutal to watch but not much more brutal than what was already on show. Donegal of course set up in exactly the same fashion at the other end. Another thing I felt was significant yesterday was the breeze. Ryan mchugh was able to effortlessly kick 3 long range points first half but in the second Donegal had to try to work the ball inside the 45 which they struggled to do. The team who play with the breeze in the second half get a big advantage as they ususally get 40 to 42 minutes with the breeze while the first half team get 36 or 37 minutes. That was significant yesterday with the long range points in injury time for Tyrone.

I don't think Donegal lacked patience in the 2nd half, it was more that Tyrone changed their game and made it harder work for Donegal to do what they did in the first half.  The main factors were Sean C was moved up to bolster midfield and Tyrone  pushed up a few meters and pressed Donegal harder

On tv it didn't look like tyrone changed their tactics. They defended their 45m line like in the first half. The difference was the breeze. Donegal had several opportunities in the second half to score from the same sort of range they were scoring from first half but didn't take the shots on. That was because of the breeze. Likewise Tyrone were able to score long range points in the second half that they couldn't have done in the first. I think Tyrone would have had to change their tactics if Donegal had done 5 or 6 points up. As it was Donegal only kept the 4 point lead for a minute or 2.

Sean Cavanagh was moved to midfield and this had a visible effect which also changed the nature of the game, Tyrone got 4 or 5 points in a row I think. 
And on a number of occasion Tyrone harried the Donegal "advance" around midfield, other times they sat back with menace  on their 45.

[StGallsGAA]

Are the highlights online anywhere?

[screenexile]

Are the highlights online anywhere?

Championship would be on iplayer... do yourself a favour and watch the last 10 minutes only you'll not be able to keep your eyes open for the first 60!

[Zulu]

That's why it's not a black card for me. I didn't see anything that would suggest it was deliberate, it might have been but unless you're 100% sure then you can't issue a card that ends a man's game.

In that case, the "late" tackle which occurs right after the release of the ball needs to be taken out of the list of offenses for black cards. Because how is anyone ever going to know someone's intent for sure? If intent, no matter how briefly considered, is the issue, and not the action.

I don't think there's any mention of 'right after the release' in the rules so I don't see why it should be taken out. For all the giving out about the black card it has been very successful if removing from the game the blatant taking out of the man after he passes and goes to get a return.

Right, but the Donnelly one WAS a case of a collision right after McHugh had released the ball. As was the one where Murphy and McCann collided in the second half, albeit Murphy had even less time to avoid it.

Where do you draw the line?

Is it a case of where the defender alters his run to block the attacker from going around him? Its not always so clear cut, especially with one look in real time. The defender could claim his altered his direction or twisted his body to protect himself from the oncoming attacker, not to block the run. IF deliberation is a factor...

It must be deliberate J70 and for me the ref must be sure to issue the black card. He couldn't have been sure about Donnelly so he shouldn't have issued the card. I think the way both me went to ground probably was a factor in that it was quite a big collision and as far as I know it was the linesman who made Coldrick aware that it might have merited a black card. Most rules in the GAA are open to interpretation and while this leads to inconsistencies it also allows a good referee the scope to use a bit of common sense. I didn't notice Donnelly change his line of movement to block McHugh and he didn't turn his shoulder into McHugh either so for me, it wasn't a black card.

[SkillfulBill]

That's why it's not a black card for me. I didn't see anything that would suggest it was deliberate, it might have been but unless you're 100% sure then you can't issue a card that ends a man's game.

In that case, the "late" tackle which occurs right after the release of the ball needs to be taken out of the list of offenses for black cards. Because how is anyone ever going to know someone's intent for sure? If intent, no matter how briefly considered, is the issue, and not the action.

I don't think there's any mention of 'right after the release' in the rules so I don't see why it should be taken out. For all the giving out about the black card it has been very successful if removing from the game the blatant taking out of the man after he passes and goes to get a return.

Right, but the Donnelly one WAS a case of a collision right after McHugh had released the ball. As was the one where Murphy and McCann collided in the second half, albeit Murphy had even less time to avoid it.

Where do you draw the line?

Is it a case of where the defender alters his run to block the attacker from going around him? Its not always so clear cut, especially with one look in real time. The defender could claim his altered his direction or twisted his body to protect himself from the oncoming attacker, not to block the run. IF deliberation is a factor...

It must be deliberate J70 and for me the ref must be sure to issue the black card. He couldn't have been sure about Donnelly so he shouldn't have issued the card. I think the way both me went to ground probably was a factor in that it was quite a big collision and as far as I know it was the linesman who made Coldrick aware that it might have merited a black card. Most rules in the GAA are open to interpretation and while this leads to inconsistencies it also allows a good referee the scope to use a bit of common sense. I didn't notice Donnelly change his line of movement to block McHugh and he didn't turn his shoulder into McHugh either so for me, it wasn't a black card.

If Donnellys intention was to block the run he would have instinctively done one of 2 things.

1. Put his hands out in front to protect himself
2. Turned his shoulder into him again protecting himself

He did neither and was off the ground trying to block the pass with his hands up. Never a black card although i can see why it was given and the ref had a replay decision would have been different as the block was not deliberate.

[redcard]

That's why it's not a black card for me. I didn't see anything that would suggest it was deliberate, it might have been but unless you're 100% sure then you can't issue a card that ends a man's game.

In that case, the "late" tackle which occurs right after the release of the ball needs to be taken out of the list of offenses for black cards. Because how is anyone ever going to know someone's intent for sure? If intent, no matter how briefly considered, is the issue, and not the action.

I don't think there's any mention of 'right after the release' in the rules so I don't see why it should be taken out. For all the giving out about the black card it has been very successful if removing from the game the blatant taking out of the man after he passes and goes to get a return.

Right, but the Donnelly one WAS a case of a collision right after McHugh had released the ball. As was the one where Murphy and McCann collided in the second half, albeit Murphy had even less time to avoid it.

Where do you draw the line?

Is it a case of where the defender alters his run to block the attacker from going around him? Its not always so clear cut, especially with one look in real time. The defender could claim his altered his direction or twisted his body to protect himself from the oncoming attacker, not to block the run. IF deliberation is a factor...

It must be deliberate J70 and for me the ref must be sure to issue the black card. He couldn't have been sure about Donnelly so he shouldn't have issued the card. I think the way both me went to ground probably was a factor in that it was quite a big collision and as far as I know it was the linesman who made Coldrick aware that it might have merited a black card. Most rules in the GAA are open to interpretation and while this leads to inconsistencies it also allows a good referee the scope to use a bit of common sense. I didn't notice Donnelly change his line of movement to block McHugh and he didn't turn his shoulder into McHugh either so for me, it wasn't a black card.

If Donnellys intention was to block the run he would have instinctively done one of 2 things.

1. Put his hands out in front to protect himself
2. Turned his shoulder into him again protecting himself

He did neither and was off the ground trying to block the pass with his hands up. Never a black card although i can see why it was given and the ref had a replay decision would have been different as the block was not deliberate.

If the roles had of been reversed Mathew donnelly would still have got a black card the same way Conor Meyler did against Monaghan

Rather than complaining about it I'd like to thank the young Donegal player who banged into sean Cavanagh (from behind) as sean ran to his position at the start of the second half. Sean classy as he is gave the perfect response.

[rrhf]

Possibly the worst Ulster Final of the worst Ulster Championship in history.Donegal had the game won at half time and controlled the second half,but would not press home the advantage. Had Jimmy been in charge there's no way that they would have lost that.

Hardly matters,as neither of the two will get past the quarter finals anyway

Hummus with a different team now. How'd they get on last week?

[under the bar]

Are the highlights online anywhere?

Championship would be on iplayer... do yourself a favour and watch the last 10 minutes only you'll not be able to keep your eyes open for the first 60!

Have Derry featured in an Ulster SFC final since the Internet became available? 

[red hander]

Possibly the worst Ulster Final of the worst Ulster Championship in history.Donegal had the game won at half time and controlled the second half,but would not press home the advantage. Had Jimmy been in charge there's no way that they would have lost that.

Hardly matters,as neither of the two will get past the quarter finals anyway

Hummus with a different team now. How'd they get on last week?

The Nostradamus of Armagh ... can you give me a set of numbers for the EuroMillions so I can studiously avoid using them every week