Meath vs Antrim - Christy Ring Final

[No wides]

Ah now GAA gets another gate!!

[AZOffaly]

In fairness to Meath, we did enquire about the score around the 62nd/63rd minute and when the linesman radioed into the ref, he told them the scoreboard was correct. Meath played the game on the scoreboard's terms from then on, i.e. went for goals when they needed them, ran down time when they thought they were a point up. At least that's what was reported.

Also Hawk-eye is supposed to check everything? Has it ever actually happened where a shot was incorrectly called and Hawk-eye intervened? I don't ever recall such a scenario which makes me slightly dubious of the claims below. The other point to make here is why the hell the system can't maintain the score automatically? Surely that should be a basic requirement?

This is a ridiculous situation and I wonder if the same set of circumstances would have been allowed play out in an All-Ireland Final. It was made worse by the president preempting the outcome of the CCCC's decision and said CCCC not convening until 3 days after the game.

Finally I don't like the black and white view that it was a draw, therefore it must be replayed. Both teams played the game on the merits of the scoreboard in the last ten minutes. Meath won and in those initial few minutes after the game, Antrim had no complaints.

Surely the point of Hawk eye is where the officials can't decide, if all agree a point is a point or it is wide, why would you call on hawk eye?

The point of Hawkeye is to ensure the correct decision is made. The pantomime call for review is only applicable when they are not sure (umpires etc). Hawkeye is supposed to proactively monitor all scores and ensure the call is correct, even if they haven't been asked. That's what was outlined at the beginning of Hawkeye. The post I did above is an extract from the Hawkeye guidelines, i.e.

What happens if Referee seeks Hawk-Eye review of an Umpire decision?

Where Umpire makes an incorrect decision regarding a 'point' or 'wide': Umpire makes incorrect decision (i.e. 'point' or 'wide')
- Review Official communicates to Referee that a Hawk-Eye review is necessary
- Referee makes a 'box' signal with his hands to seek Hawk-Eye review
- The Hawk-Eye replay is shown on the Big Screen
- Referee confirms Hawk-Eye decision and makes the appropriate decision. Umpire signals that decision.

[No wides]

If the white flag is raised, the ref accepts white flag, notes score in book and runs out field, are you seriously saying those monitoring hawk eye are going call them to task, in reality it is only when the officials are unsure.

[doodaa]

Yes, Meath should not have traipsed the team around the county on Sunday when the world and his mother knew the result was likely to be overturned.

And I addressed your point re Hawkeye. I saw it happen, I just can't remember which game. Maybe one of the other lads will remember. The description of its function is there above in my second last post.

Do you think Meath GAA are right here? What would your optimum scenario be? Meath win, even though the referee's report says it was a draw? Now that's ridiculous.

As for Hawkeye maintaining the score, of course it could. It's computer software, it can do whatever you program it to do. But that is moot. As I've said before, the official arbiter is the referee. He obviously gave Meath wrong information in the 63rd minute or whenever they asked, but the gospel is his match report. That report says draw, and if every scoreboard in Croke PArk and on TG4 says different, it doesn't matter a shite.

I kinda feel sorry for Meath and as Sea the Stars says you play the game in front of you. You ask for official clarification on the score (as did Antrim) and both were told the scoreboard was right. At this point we have to presume that the referees notebook was the same as the scoreboard.
What were they meant to do?

I presume its common protocol for a referee to tally the scores right after the game ends, no?

If after the game the referee realised his mistake then he and the Croke Park team should have had the cahonies to stop the presentation and announce on the tannoy that there'd been a mistake.

I get the distinct impression that the referees notebook had a Meath victory and it was only after reviewing the game that the proper scoreline has come out.

An absolute mess with no winners.

Perfectly summed up my thoughts as well ^^^^

[ballinaman]

#WhyAlwaysMeath

[AZOffaly]

If the white flag is raised, the ref accepts white flag, notes score in book and runs out field, are you seriously saying those monitoring hawk eye are going call them to task, in reality it is only when the officials are unsure.

Yes I am seriously saying that. I'm sure I saw it happen as well.

[AZOffaly]

Now I have it. Remember the furore over Hawkeye being configured for football and tracking a sliotar? There was an incorrect decision made because of it in a Limerick game?

Well there was an article at the time in the Examiner (2013) and it specifically mentions the incidents I am thinking of...

Of course, Hawk-Eye is only in the first of a two-year trial period while it has already proven its usefulness such as correctly overruling two umpiring decisions in the Leinster SHC final, calling a wide against Galway in the first half and then a second-half point for Dublin.

[johnneycool]

Now I have it. Remember the furore over Hawkeye being configured for football and tracking a sliotar? There was an incorrect decision made because of it in a Limerick game?

Well there was an article at the time in the Examiner (2013) and it specifically mentions the incidents I am thinking of...

Of course, Hawk-Eye is only in the first of a two-year trial period while it has already proven its usefulness such as correctly overruling two umpiring decisions in the Leinster SHC final, calling a wide against Galway in the first half and then a second-half point for Dublin.

Limerick minors it was and no replay was offered!

[AZOffaly]

No johnney. The article was written after the Limerick minors debacle. The incident it is referring to above is where Hawkeye correctly overruled two other decisions. I'll get the full article so you can see what I mean.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/john-fogarty/hawk-eye-latest-to-turn-on-limerick-240446.html

[Applesisapples]

Think they're arguing that they scored a legitimate point but it was ruled wide.Having a Board Meeting.What happens if they don't field and hold on to the trophy?

People get confused on this issue. If the Ref does not award the score at the time then it is not a score, whether it should have been awarded is irrelevant. When the ref tallied the scores he actually awarded it was a draw end of story. Meath have no shame, what self respecting team would want to win a trophy in those circumstances? The craic about the missed free at the end is bullshit too.

[AZOffaly]

I just had a twitter exchange with John Fogarty, who wrote that article, and he confirmed that it is the case that *all* scores are reviewed, regardless of the signal from the umpire/ref, and if they spot an error, they immediately buzz the ref to correct it.

The only question is 'Was Hawkeye Operational on Saturday?.'

If it was, Meath's question is irrelevant. If it wasn't then Meath might well be right, but at least it would answer why not refer it to Hawkeye.

[Sea The Stars]

I wonder if Hawk-Eye has over-ruled any decisions since that Limerick minors incident a couple of years ago? I'm not arguing with what you're saying AZOffaly but I find it surprising that there aren't more examples of Hawk-Eye correcting the officials. At least none that stick out for me - you would think it would happen slightly more frequently.

Secondly now that the Limerick incident has been brought up, technically Limerick "won" that game (or "won" it in the same sense that Meath and Antrim "drew") yet Limerick never progressed to the final or even sought a replay. I think everyone put it down to the incident happening in the first minute so it's a bit of quandary really - because this happened in the 63rd minute, the game should be replayed? The inconsistency in decision making sometimes is hilarious. 

[AZOffaly]

Did you read the article I posted? It successfully, and correctly, overruled 2 calls in the Galway-Dublin Leinster hurling final. Then it made a cockup in the Limerick Minor Game.

So the facility exists to overrule incorrect calls, whether asked for or not, and that facility has been used at least 3 times that I am aware of.

My point is that there is no 'need' to harangue refs or umpires to 'go to hawkeye'. It will happen automatically whether the ref calls it or not.

[johnneycool]

Think they're arguing that they scored a legitimate point but it was ruled wide.Having a Board Meeting.What happens if they don't field and hold on to the trophy?

People get confused on this issue. If the Ref does not award the score at the time then it is not a score, whether it should have been awarded is irrelevant. When the ref tallied the scores he actually awarded it was a draw end of story. Meath have no shame, what self respecting team would want to win a trophy in those circumstances? The craic about the missed free at the end is bullshit too.

But did he? If he tallied his scores at the end of the game why did he not call it a draw and prevent the presentation, play extra time and so on??

I think his book had it as a Meath victory and it was only after watching replays of the game that they came up with the draw, but no one in Croke Park is going to come out and say that....

[clootfromthe21]

I wonder if Hawk-Eye has over-ruled any decisions since that Limerick minors incident a couple of years ago? I'm not arguing with what you're saying AZOffaly but I find it surprising that there aren't more examples of Hawk-Eye correcting the officials. At least none that stick out for me - you would think it would happen slightly more frequently.

Secondly now that the Limerick incident has been brought up, technically Limerick "won" that game (or "won" it in the same sense that Meath and Antrim "drew") yet Limerick never progressed to the final or even sought a replay. I think everyone put it down to the incident happening in the first minute so it's a bit of quandary really - because this happened in the 63rd minute, the game should be replayed? The inconsistency in decision making sometimes is hilarious.

The Limerick situation and the Antrim Meath situation are not the same at all. On the referee's scoring, Limerick lost by a point. On the referee's scoring, Antrim and Meath drew.

In the Limerick game, Limerick claimed a point but the referee did not give it. The manner in which he did not give it was that it went to Hawkeye (which was incorrectly set up) which gave it wide and so no point was "awarded." The referee exercised his judgment (albeit based on an incorrectly set up Hawkeye) and did not award a score. That is the key. "Morally" (or whatever other word you might want to use), it might have been a "score" but "technically" (officially, legally, whatever) it was not.

This is akin to the situation in the famous Louth - Meath game. Again "morally", Joe Sheridan may have not have "scored" in accordance with the rules, but the referee awarded the goal and Meath won.

In the Antrim Meath game, the referee "awarded" the following scores  - 1 - 20 to Antrim and 2 -17 to Meath. He accepts in his report that the foregoing were the scores that he awarded. The match was a draw. There can be no debate that, after 70 minutes, the referee had awarded equal scores to both teams. That he (or the scoreboard operator) may have "thought" for a time that it was 1-20 to 2-18 is irrelevant to the fact that it was a draw.

The Limerick situation is closer to the argument I've seen raised by Meath fans that Meath "should" have had a point in or about 40 minute mark that was waived wide. It may have been a point, it may not, but the referee didn't award it.

To be honest, the argument that the decision to have a replay when the referee's report shows that the game was a draw somehow opens the floodgates to every refereeing decision being subject to challenge is, at best, disingenuous.