Tír Eoghain vs An Cabhán Ulster Semi Replay 4pm 03/07/2016 @Clones

[Club Rossa]

Correct Itchy,a very long spell!!

[longballin]

Tyrone will win handy but will then discover Div 1 teams a whole other level

[seafoid]

Tyrone beat Cavan in the 1956 Ulster final which ended a spell of total Cavan dominance in the fixture.

GRMA

Free education in the north was a disaster for cavan football

Cavan and Monaghan basically won all the ulsters  between 1920 and 1960 but monaghan never won Sam  while Cavan won 5.

[Itchy]

Don't think Cavan are ready to really mix it with the likes of Tyrone just yet. At the very least, however, I'd hope for a pluckier showing than the league final where it looked like Tyrone coasted through and were able to hold Cavan off with one arm at times. That revealed a gulf in class that should be somewhat narrower at this stage in Cavan's evolution I think, so I hope in the semi we push Tyrone all the way, pose a few questions that won't be so easily answered as in Croker a few weeks ago, and knock them out of their comfort zone a little. As a Cavan supporter, you'd also be looking for some sort of evidence that tactically, they have a variation up their sleeve to facilitate all this instead of (Tyrone's excellence notwithstanding) reverting to the depressingly familiar and predictable Plan A of shuffling the ball crab-like up the field at half pace and attacking ponderously and laterally. Tyrone are a mighty tough nut but there's little sense in again trying what never works.

For Cavan to cause a shock, they need to have one of those days where literally every variable - 50-50 calls, weather, breaks, lucky bounces - goes their way coupled with Tyrone having a bad day at the office. I really can't see Cavan winning this game though - it'd need to be one of those once-in-a-generation seismic championship shocks - so I'd be happy to see them emerge with a moral victory and something positive to take into the qualifiers.

I could have egg on my face in the next few weeks but I just do not get this "Tyrone are brilliant" narrative. Yes they've a top manager, yes they have a well understood and effective system and yes they have a few top players. However, they were relegated last yr from div 1, their new players are no better than cavans (it would also be fair enough to say cavans new players have a strong history of beating  Tyrones) and they have not won ulster in a while. Why should Cavan beating them be such a shock. f**k it I expect Cavan to win and I expect Terry Hyland to have learnt more from the league final than Harte.

[yellowcard]

I think Cavan will put it up to Tyrone as this will be their AI final and may well be the signature game of Hylands reign. To get to the next level, Cavan will have to take a big scalp and Tyrone will be considered a big scalp. I'm not sure though they are ready to beat Tyrone and I'd expect Tyrone to edge this by a few points.

[Il Bomber Destro]

Don't think Cavan are ready to really mix it with the likes of Tyrone just yet. At the very least, however, I'd hope for a pluckier showing than the league final where it looked like Tyrone coasted through and were able to hold Cavan off with one arm at times. That revealed a gulf in class that should be somewhat narrower at this stage in Cavan's evolution I think, so I hope in the semi we push Tyrone all the way, pose a few questions that won't be so easily answered as in Croker a few weeks ago, and knock them out of their comfort zone a little. As a Cavan supporter, you'd also be looking for some sort of evidence that tactically, they have a variation up their sleeve to facilitate all this instead of (Tyrone's excellence notwithstanding) reverting to the depressingly familiar and predictable Plan A of shuffling the ball crab-like up the field at half pace and attacking ponderously and laterally. Tyrone are a mighty tough nut but there's little sense in again trying what never works.

For Cavan to cause a shock, they need to have one of those days where literally every variable - 50-50 calls, weather, breaks, lucky bounces - goes their way coupled with Tyrone having a bad day at the office. I really can't see Cavan winning this game though - it'd need to be one of those once-in-a-generation seismic championship shocks - so I'd be happy to see them emerge with a moral victory and something positive to take into the qualifiers.

I could have egg on my face in the next few weeks but I just do not get this "Tyrone are brilliant" narrative. Yes they've a top manager, yes they have a well understood and effective system and yes they have a few top players. However, they were relegated last yr from div 1, their new players are no better than cavans (it would also be fair enough to say cavans new players have a strong history of beating  Tyrones) and they have not won ulster in a while. Why should Cavan beating them be such a shock. f**k it I expect Cavan to win and I expect Terry Hyland to have learnt more from the league final than Harte.

You read too much into league performances

Had Tyrone hit another point they would have stayed up last year with Kerry going down. Mayo were looking in great bother this year of going down. Donegal reached an All Ireland final in 2014 playing from Div 2. Particularly Div 1 is a case of bluffs and double bluffs.

The big teams don't play at the full level when it comes to the league. I felt Tyrone coasted up this year with two games to spare with a few more gears to move in to had they needed. Counties like Roscommon and Cork have been hyped up in recent years going into Championship on the back of their league campaigns. They were built up to be better teams than others because the opposition were not as serious about the league as these teams were. The league is a warm up competition, nice if you get the trophy and all but at the end of the year it's only what happens in the summer and early Autumn that actually matters.

[BennyHarp]

Don't think Cavan are ready to really mix it with the likes of Tyrone just yet. At the very least, however, I'd hope for a pluckier showing than the league final where it looked like Tyrone coasted through and were able to hold Cavan off with one arm at times. That revealed a gulf in class that should be somewhat narrower at this stage in Cavan's evolution I think, so I hope in the semi we push Tyrone all the way, pose a few questions that won't be so easily answered as in Croker a few weeks ago, and knock them out of their comfort zone a little. As a Cavan supporter, you'd also be looking for some sort of evidence that tactically, they have a variation up their sleeve to facilitate all this instead of (Tyrone's excellence notwithstanding) reverting to the depressingly familiar and predictable Plan A of shuffling the ball crab-like up the field at half pace and attacking ponderously and laterally. Tyrone are a mighty tough nut but there's little sense in again trying what never works.

For Cavan to cause a shock, they need to have one of those days where literally every variable - 50-50 calls, weather, breaks, lucky bounces - goes their way coupled with Tyrone having a bad day at the office. I really can't see Cavan winning this game though - it'd need to be one of those once-in-a-generation seismic championship shocks - so I'd be happy to see them emerge with a moral victory and something positive to take into the qualifiers.

I could have egg on my face in the next few weeks but I just do not get this "Tyrone are brilliant" narrative. Yes they've a top manager, yes they have a well understood and effective system and yes they have a few top players. However, they were relegated last yr from div 1, their new players are no better than cavans (it would also be fair enough to say cavans new players have a strong history of beating  Tyrones) and they have not won ulster in a while. Why should Cavan beating them be such a shock. f**k it I expect Cavan to win and I expect Terry Hyland to have learnt more from the league final than Harte.

I agree, I expect Cavan to give Tyrone a proper test and I definitely see your line of argument regarding the younger players however from a Tyrone point of view, we would feel that this team hasn't just popped up out of nowhere. There have been clear signs of progression and development of a gameplan that fits with the players at our disposal. Two All Ireland semi finals in three years bought the players on massively and the improvement in performance from 2013 to 2015 led weight to the argument that we were moving in the right direction. Add in the confidence that winning the U21 All Ireland gave the new batch of younger players and I would see a collection of positives that would give me hope for this year and the future. That U21 win was very important in my view, our good senior teams are often based on AI winning underage teams. Although you say that Cavans younger players have no fear of Tyrone and they probably don't, however, they were unable to make the break through to win an AI even after 4 ulsters in a row, in fact they only managed to make the final once in 2011 and were soundly beaten by Galway. Nothing breeds confidence like winning All Irelands.

My point is that the form Tyrone bring to the table is based on progression at senior level, with two last four appearances and fairly consistent Div 1 football (albeit with relegation last year) combined with recent AI success at minor and u21. I will probably be the one with egg on my face but Cavan can't match that and winning a few games in the Ulster U21 championship isn't enough to make me too worried.

[Itchy]

Time will tell but my basic point is that we Cavan need to stop thinking about ourselves as inferior and be happy with a good show and instead tear into the opposition expecting to win.Our young lads are winners, they don't know fear like done of the older lads and that will be critical in a few weeks. Hopefully will be the game to get this ulster championship going

[ONeill]

Forgot that Tyrone had reached 2 of the last 3 AI semis. Not bad for an emerging side.

That 2013 side - P McConnell, R McKenna, C Clarke, C McCarron, C McGinley (0-01), P Harte, C Gormley, C Cavanagh, S Cavanagh (0-02, 1f), Mattie Donnelly, Mark Donnelly, Joe McMahon, D McCurry (0-04, 2f), S O'Neill (0-01), C McAliskey (0-02).
Subs: D Carlin for Harte, R O'Neill (0-01) for S O'Neill, R McNabb for McMahon, A Cassidy (0-01) for Mattie Donnelly, K Coney (0-01) for R O'Neill

If my memory is sort of sound, didn't Sean Cavanagh carry a lot of the burden that year?

[seafoid]

Forgot that Tyrone had reached 2 of the last 3 AI semis. Not bad for an emerging side.

That 2013 side - P McConnell, R McKenna, C Clarke, C McCarron, C McGinley (0-01), P Harte, C Gormley, C Cavanagh, S Cavanagh (0-02, 1f), Mattie Donnelly, Mark Donnelly, Joe McMahon, D McCurry (0-04, 2f), S O'Neill (0-01), C McAliskey (0-02).
Subs: D Carlin for Harte, R O'Neill (0-01) for S O'Neill, R McNabb for McMahon, A Cassidy (0-01) for Mattie Donnelly, K Coney (0-01) for R O'Neill

If my memory is sort of sound, didn't Sean Cavanagh carry a lot of the burden that year?

what year did Cavanagh rugby tackle the Monaghan player?

[From the Bunker]

Forgot that Tyrone had reached 2 of the last 3 AI semis. Not bad for an emerging side.

That 2013 side - P McConnell, R McKenna, C Clarke, C McCarron, C McGinley (0-01), P Harte, C Gormley, C Cavanagh, S Cavanagh (0-02, 1f), Mattie Donnelly, Mark Donnelly, Joe McMahon, D McCurry (0-04, 2f), S O'Neill (0-01), C McAliskey (0-02).
Subs: D Carlin for Harte, R O'Neill (0-01) for S O'Neill, R McNabb for McMahon, A Cassidy (0-01) for Mattie Donnelly, K Coney (0-01) for R O'Neill

If my memory is sort of sound, didn't Sean Cavanagh carry a lot of the burden that year?

what year did Cavanagh rugby tackle the Monaghan player?

13

[seafoid]

Forgot that Tyrone had reached 2 of the last 3 AI semis. Not bad for an emerging side.

That 2013 side - P McConnell, R McKenna, C Clarke, C McCarron, C McGinley (0-01), P Harte, C Gormley, C Cavanagh, S Cavanagh (0-02, 1f), Mattie Donnelly, Mark Donnelly, Joe McMahon, D McCurry (0-04, 2f), S O'Neill (0-01), C McAliskey (0-02).
Subs: D Carlin for Harte, R O'Neill (0-01) for S O'Neill, R McNabb for McMahon, A Cassidy (0-01) for Mattie Donnelly, K Coney (0-01) for R O'Neill

If my memory is sort of sound, didn't Sean Cavanagh carry a lot of the burden that year?

what year did Cavanagh rugby tackle the Monaghan player?

13

GRMA

So that wasn't a fair semi appearance then

[ONeill]

McCarron on Seanie surely. A banter dream.

[BennyHarp]

Forgot that Tyrone had reached 2 of the last 3 AI semis. Not bad for an emerging side.

That 2013 side - P McConnell, R McKenna, C Clarke, C McCarron, C McGinley (0-01), P Harte, C Gormley, C Cavanagh, S Cavanagh (0-02, 1f), Mattie Donnelly, Mark Donnelly, Joe McMahon, D McCurry (0-04, 2f), S O'Neill (0-01), C McAliskey (0-02).
Subs: D Carlin for Harte, R O'Neill (0-01) for S O'Neill, R McNabb for McMahon, A Cassidy (0-01) for Mattie Donnelly, K Coney (0-01) for R O'Neill

If my memory is sort of sound, didn't Sean Cavanagh carry a lot of the burden that year?

what year did Cavanagh rugby tackle the Monaghan player?

13

GRMA

So that wasn't a fair semi appearance then

Ah sure, we were fortunate enough to learn in 95 and 96 that All Irelands aren't handed out on the basis of fairness. It's a dog eat dog championship, maybe they should introduce a fair play league?

[cavanmaniac]

Time will tell but my basic point is that we Cavan need to stop thinking about ourselves as inferior and be happy with a good show and instead tear into the opposition expecting to win.Our young lads are winners, they don't know fear like done of the older lads and that will be critical in a few weeks. Hopefully will be the game to get this ulster championship going

I agree with you there Itchy, my substantive earlier point was, however, that the players themselves don't seem to be in a position to do this yet. I think our lads have certainly changed the psychology since the horror years, but last year against Monaghan exposed that, upstairs, they hadn't the ruthlessness and belief to go and kill the game off when firmly in the driving seat and to a lesser extent the same happened against Armagh on Sunday - after both goals there was an almost instinctive slackening off to the point where a fairly shite Armagh side riddled with issues could have been within three points with 13 minutes to go. This 'what-we-have-we-hold' mentality speaks to me of inferiority and a lack of big game maturity, or something. So winning against Tyrone would be a hell of a step up for these lads right now I think.

I do agree though that at some stage, we have to decide are we there to win or just make up the numbers etc. - I'm just wondering if the players are there yet. Anyway, hope I'm wrong. I'll eat shell and all if there's egg on my face in three weeks, and happily.