IRISH NORTHERNERS AND SOUTHERNERS

[OgraAnDun]

Muppet, it's a conversation forum. Of course the article is biased, it's an opinion piece in which one person puts forward their point of view. It is up to others to create a conversation around that where they can get their point of view across and allow people to make up their minds. It's not a requirement that when starting a new thread that the OP has to post a link to both sides of a debate.

[muppet]

Ogra I agree with you completely. I merely suggested it might have been better to have balanced the original post.

MoChara has shown himself to be a good contributor here and I was suggesting balance as a way to avoid the usual directions these threads go, i.e. The Shinnerbots show up.

[Il Bomber Destro]

I know you're on the wind up but a Fermanagh Catholic farmer hasn't very much in common with Larne, Newtownards, Ballymena etc.
However he has an awful lot in common with people in Cavan, Leitrim, Longford etc etc.

What would a Fermanagh farmer have in common with someone from Longford?

[Il Bomber Destro]

The most resentful thing I have with Southerners is that there hasn't be an acknowledgement that they abandoned us, it doesn't occur to them that their inaction and apathy to what northern nationalists had to go through during the troubles was wrong - and the subsequent moralising and pro-Brit revisionism they adopt of republicans defending their own people in the North, just adds salt into the wounds.

I'd agree with the article, I do feel a detachment from Southerners. For those of you who defend that particular view of the Southerners and the Free State establishments, do you at least acknowledge that successive Free State governments absolutely failed the northern nationalists and can understand the resentment that may be there? That does not mean to state that the governments of that time were representative of your own view, but if they weren't then surely you would feel some sort of shame or guilt about how the north was abandoned by the South for selfish reasons. Compare to a family member carrying out some action to a person you knew who you had no quarrel with and regular dealings with, if you met them would you apologise for their actions and let them know that said person was wrong or would you just act as if nothing happened? Or alternatively would you, like as seems to be certainly the case of the Free State media and establishment political parties, that we deserved what we got? Can you understand that is why there may be a resentment there.

The aspect that the Free State and it's people failed the North has never been borne out by Southerners, no contrition or acknowledgement has ever been made of this - not in media and not in public figures. That is the angle the article gets at and one that I feel accurately conveys my own feelings. For those of you who say you empathise with what Northern nationalists had to go through, is there an acknowledgement or shed of guilt or shame with the reaction of Free State and its citizens (by association) to the plight of Northern nationalists?

I'd also agree with the author in that in the term Southerners, I would not include Donegal, Louth, Monaghan and parts of Leitrim in terms of their attitude to the north. I feel these people had an understanding of the troubles and weren't represented by the common Free State Establishment view, the further south you went the more ignorance and inverted guilt played out. The problem is generalisations, some people may feel dismayed to be tagged in that view but I would feel you can't quibble if you are not ashamed by the inaction of the Free State toward the north and the establishment parties and media's revisionism, ignorance and hypocrisy when reporting on Northern issues.

[Cú Choileáin]

Hello all. I'm the author of the piece. Wordpress has a facility that allows you to see the origin of traffic to your blog so thought I'd check out what people were saying. Might as well engage with some of the criticism whilst I'm at it! Thanks for reading, by the way, those that did, and for your range of thoughts and opinions on it. All appreciated.

In relation to accusations of bias, it's a personal account, articulating my own experiences and that of my family, friends and community. I can't articulate the personal experiences of people I don't know, of communities in which I did not grow up or with whom I have not had the opportunity of interacting on a meaningful basis. Any personal account is, of course, going to be "biased" in that sense. (For what it's worth, a published unionist blogger got in touch with me and had very positive words to say about what I'd written. He welcomed the perspective.)

So you saw it as southern-bashing? What parts in particular?

Here is wile Joe:

" My father, a veteran republican, fluent Irish speaker and traditional musician steeped in all things Gaelic quipped to me during the week, "Don't be too hard on the southerners Joe, some of them are almost as Irish as we are."

Take the reference to the (foolish) Meath East TD. She unwisely suggested that an attack on Sinn Féin's Belfast office in 1982, where staff were murdered, was 'brought upon themselves'. It has to be said that this was a particular stupid comment from the TD.

However the article leaps from that to:

"She blindly and sanctimoniously assumed that the suffering of the nationalist community and republicans was "all brought on by [their] own actions", as if nationalist trouble-making was the primary source or cause of the conflict."

But worse than that. He then uses that daft cow, and in particular his twisting of her idiotic comments, as a brush to tar us all:

"Perhaps such hostile reactions amount to victim-blaming as a means of deflecting from southern feelings of semi-responsibility, failure (to create a 32-county republic) or guilt (over partition and the abandonment of northerners)."

I have relatives in the wee 6 and I lived up there for a while. I consider myself a 32-county Ireland man. I know I am an Irishman and I don't need Joe f**king Brolly to tell me what that is.

The last think this island needs is Catholics of the 6 counties to think bashing the 26 counties is somehow going to improve their lot.

I think you're being overly defensive and cherry-picking. I would suggest Joe was being slightly tongue-in-cheek with the "almost as Irish as we are" bit. And I wasn't southerner-bashing. My ma's a southerner, as are my relations. Plenty of southerners have responded positively to the piece. It's hardly tarring all with the one brush when I make clear distinctions throughout and also make it very clear that there are southerners who are empathic. I'm very careful to make it clear that southerners are not a monolithic group. When I brought up Regina Doherty's comment, for example, I brought it up in the context of referring to "certain other southerners - especially those of a partitionist persuasion", so there's absolutely no reason why you should have thought I was generalising and accusing all southerners of harbouring her sentiments.

On Regina Dohery's comment, she used the words "all brought on by your own actions" as Gerry Adams spoke about attacks on him, his family and other members of the nationalist and republican community. At best, there was ambiguity, but she was still victim-blaming. I analysed what she said in two other pieces I wrote around the time I heard it. Here: https://danieldcollins.wordpress.com/2016/02/25/suspicion-hangs-over-veracity-of-regina-dohertys-death-threat-allegation/ and https://danieldcollins.wordpress.com/2016/02/27/the-death-threat-to-regina-doherty-and-misconceptions-about-sinn-fein-in-the-south/

My father's cousin (who I mention in the piece) was a member of Sinn Féin, so did the same principle of "bringing it upon himself" apply to him simply because of his Sinn Féin membership? Why would he and other victims killed because of their politics (or religion) be any different from those other innocent people she blamed for their own fate? It's entirely reasonable to assume her application was general. (By the way, I'm not affiliated with any party myself and I link to plenty of sources in my writings to provide further background info besides 'An Phoblacht', which I've linked to pretty infrequently.)

As for my suspicion that hostile reactions like Doherty's are rooted in defensiveness, notions of southern guilt over sacrificing their northern compatriots or repressed feelings of failure (over not achieving full 32-county independence), such feelings have long been written about. They aren't theories I've come up with myself. It was a theme in some of the work of James Joyce. Elizabeth Keane, Donnacha Ó Beacháin, Joseph Ruane and Jennifer Todd have also documented such feelings.

The reaction to republicanism using its voice or emerging as an electoral force in the south has been more hostile than how republicans are treated in the north by unionists or even by British politicians and, indeed, monarchs. What reason do critics have in the south to be more angry than, say, unionists or British politicians/monarchs have to be? That's why I suspect there may be some deeper underlying psychological complex at root. Call it an irritable or unresolved hang-over from partition maybe?

Republicans are a "nuisance" for the southern establishment because republicans force the state to self-reflect and ask deep questions of its origins, its legitimacy and its very existence. Republicans, by their very existence, expose the reality that the southern state is a failed attempt at putting the principles of the 1916-proclaimed republic celebrated every Easter by the state into practice. Anger, indignance and rejection perhaps helps deflect from this uncomfortable fact and from southern establishment hypocrisy.

[Cú Choileáin]

As a northerner, I'm sick of nordies that go on like this. It's just getting boring at this stage and caring so much about whether or not somebody in Galway or Kildare is dreaming of a United Ireland makes you look insecure in your own skin and it neglects the real pressing issues on either side of the non-existant border.

Like what is the big f**king deal here?

Having your identity explicitly denied doesn't grate even slightly with you or evoke even the remotest hint of derision for whoever's denying it? Fine, you don't think it's a big deal and see the matter as nothing more than an issue of sentiment. I think it'd be nice to have a more collective sense of national consciousness, but, as you say, it's not essential, of course. As for where the partitionist attitude is of practical detriment or some examples of what the south could do to bridge the sense of separation:

i) The southern government has done precious little to pressure the British government on truth and legacy issues despite the latter's continued violation of its ECHR obligations. It has failed to effectively assist its own citizens from the north in taking on the British government in numerous outstanding suspected collusion cases, torture cases and (over 150) cases of alleged army misconduct. Its silence on the "hooded men" case is deafening, for example. Families would appreciate assistance in getting the truth and some form of closure. I think the nationalist community in the north generally would appreciate this.

When the Bloody Sunday families first went south for help long before the Saville Inquiry was set up, they were shunned and their appeals for meetings with the then-president Mary Robinson and cardinal Cahal Daly were flat-out rejected. The southern establishment had not the slightest bit of interest interest in meeting the families or in listening to what they had to say. Is this a prevailing attitude?

There's a superb dissection of the Saville Report here by Eamonn McCann where he mentions how the families were treated like dirt until the PR-savvy British establishment saw re-opening the Bloody Sunday matter as a means of buttering-up or making a sort of cover-all reconciliation-offering to the nationalist community whilst simultaneously insulating itself from ultimate blame: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x83lt5zDRbg

McCann talks about southern rejection of the families at 12:30. He comments that there was a perception in the south that the families' cause to have the names of their sons, fathers and brothers cleared was "tainted with Provo-ism".

I also describe the Inquiry itself in rather cynical terms above because, as McCann discusses from 06:40, the families had initially crafted a statement to make to the public upon the announcement of the Inquiry's findings; it was set to state that the victims had been vindicated and that the parachute regiment had been disgraced. After this was heard by the senior NIO official, Mary Madden, in the Guildhall that day (the statement had been read out inside the Guildhall to the families for their final seal of approval right before they were to go outside and announce their feelings to the public from the stage in Guildhall Square), she took McCann aside and said whilst quivering, "That will have to be changed. That statement will have to be changed. Everybody had agree that this was to be a day of reconciliation."

What a strange thing to say. Everyone had agreed to no such thing. In reality, or at least for the families and community anyway, it was to be a day of finally having forced the British state to admit to the truth about a massacre that had happened on the streets of Derry – a truth it had been denying for decades – but here was a state official still attempting to stage-manage or sanitise the victims' families' collective response for the benefit of the state.

ii) The south could think more seriously about giving northern Irish nationals a vote (at least in presidential elections), although some sort of official representative, for whom people in the north could vote too might be a thought. I'm aware there'd be a fear of unionist sabotage – maybe that's over-stated and unfounded – but, if not residence, then perhaps possession of an Irish passport could be the qualifying mechanism.

iii) More cross-border initiatives such as school-exchanges where students from the south might visit the north for a few days and vice-versa for students from the north.

iv) Get the motorway built from Dublin to Derry. The north-west region was a peripheral region before partition anyway, but partition doubled that effect by splitting an urban commercial centre from its Donegal hinterland. Both Derry and Donegal became declining peripheral areas of remote centralist capitals in Dublin and London (via Belfast).

v) Ditto, a train-line.

vi) Less of the hypocrisy, pontification, victim-blaming and general sense of moral superiority. The Irish state was founded through violence and bloodshed too. Trying to understand it and the material difficulties people experienced doesn't have to equate to glorifying their responses.

vii) Most importantly, start talking about a unity strategy that will benefit all on the island. That will have economic implications too, so it's not as if it's a luxury side or non-issue. Brexit has the potential of reinforcing partition, and not merely politically or socially. People north and south can benefit from unity in their everyday lives, but the only mainstream party on the island talking about it at present is Sinn Féin.

[Cú Choileáin]

That's my issue with this sort of article. It makes assumptions about everyone in the Republic, and I'm a bit sick of lads telling me what I think or believe. I know what I think or believe, and I also am fairly confident that the majority of people in this state would have similar views on the North, certainly most of the 'real' people I've spoken to. I'm not sure what the various usernames on here would say to cause a row.

There is an issue with our media, and with an over-representation of a particular point of view, but that does not mean that we all see ye as different or less Irish. I'm actually sick of talking about this.

+1

As someone from the North,I agree with this, one of my pet hates is six county nationalism or more correctly six county partitionism

What do you mean by "six county nationalism" exactly? Any form of nationalist expression form within the six counties, is it? My nationalism is very much a 32-county one. And it's hardly partitionism. I'm lamenting the partitionist attitudes that the border has spawned.

I liked the essay apart from  a few generalisations  such as referring to a  "common southern mindset"
Those faults are not enough to detract from the essay. It's a good read and an honest personal account
and way beyond the intelligence level of the tractors.

What do we call nordies if we can't call them nordies? nothing, we don't have to call them anything?  they are just like one of us?
Life was easier when I could call a nordie a nordie and not feel like I was socially stigmatising them.

Fair enough, maybe "common southern mindset" there is a bit of a generalisation and I could/should have been more careful in that instance, but I did make that comment in the context of referring to my conversations with my own mother on her feelings and the blissful ignorance of her and her peers before she actually moved north. I think it would be fair to say most people in the south don't fully get it because they hadn't lived it, no?

It can be difficult making certain assertions when you don't have exact stats and figures, but I do know that certain attitudes are prevalent because I have experienced them, my friends and family have experienced them and hundreds of people with whom the piece resonated have felt or experienced them. The piece is the most popular post ever on my blog, by a distance, and I was being bombarded with dozens of messages on various platforms from people saying they connected with it. I think that's surely some sort of validation of what I was articulating.

Your thoughts and criticism are appreciated though.

By the way, I never said "nordie" was a slur. I did say it was used without malice and was geographical primarily. Only thing I said was that it made me feel a bit different, which is only natural surely; that's the purpose and inevitable effect of labels of distinction.

[charlieTully]

I was down at a festival in the south a few years back with two friends who happen to be protestant and unionist, we got chatting to these lads from Limerick beside us, the craic was mighty, everyone getting along. Then one of the lads from Limerick asked boys whats it like up north with all the prods and loyalists, I said ach we all get along fine, depends where your from, the boys with me never let on they were protestant as they feared a booting. I assured them later they wouldn't have, but at the same time I didn't say they were. I suppose the point is the lads just assumed we were all catholic because we were down. The sectarian link sickens me, I couldn't give a flying fcuk about being a catholic but care deeply about my nationality.

[Cú Choileáin]

This essay could easily have been written by a unionist expressing how he is unloved or not identified with or by real British people.

Semi-related this, but an interesting blog post from 2012 by Darach MacDonald on the feelings of Ulster Protestants who were marooned (similar to how nationalists were in the north) on the southern side of the border post-partition: http://darachmac.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/trapped-by-border-ulster-protestants-in.html

Many of east Donegal's Ulster-Scots community still identify as British, either solely or primarily. Notable members of this community include Basil McCrea, Willie Hay (DUP) and Maurice Devenney.

Anyone from Ulster or the 6C that gets offended by the term 'Nordie' or 'Northener' needs to catch themselves on and have a look at which part of the country their county lies in. A lot of people consider Cavan/Monaghan/Donegal people as northerners anyway - because Ulster is in the north of the country.

The trouble comes with some gobshites calling you 'British' or (almost as bad) 'Northern Irish'. A lot of these people subscribe to the modern revisionist view of Irish history and are more interested in furthering the cause of a neutered and PC world than educating themselves about the plight of 6 County Catholics and doing something about it. Don't you know that waving flags (apart from rainbow flags) is uncool?

Just to be clear, I wasn't saying it offended me. Just that it made me feel a bit different. Have a read of the entirety of Brolly's piece for some examples of the nastier abuse some northern GAA players have had to endure, and that's from within an overtly-nationalist, 32-county body: http://www.derryjournal.com/news/columnists/brolly-s-bites-north-men-south-men-comrades-all-my-arse-1-3674549

So what? How often does PR's party pull him up on everything he says?

Gerry Adams made some pretty idiotic comments during the recent election on economic matters. They made him look a right twit. Did his party make a song and dance about them? Did they draw even more attention to them, in their mad rush to repudiate them? Like hell they did. They just ignored them and hoped the fuss would die down in time. As do all political parties, when one of their own does or says something incredibly thick.

Taking one stupid comment of one politician, as being indicative of what 4 million people think, is very narrow minded.

But nobody did that. I was clearly referring to those partitionists who react with hostility or incredulousness to northerners articulating their experiences.

[seafoid]

I know you're on the wind up but a Fermanagh Catholic farmer hasn't very much in common with Larne, Newtownards, Ballymena etc.
However he has an awful lot in common with people in Cavan, Leitrim, Longford etc etc.

What would a Fermanagh farmer have in common with someone from Longford?

Wet fields, not much use at football, country music

[omaghjoe]

I know you're on the wind up but a Fermanagh Catholic farmer hasn't very much in common with Larne, Newtownards, Ballymena etc.
However he has an awful lot in common with people in Cavan, Leitrim, Longford etc etc.

What would a Fermanagh farmer have in common with someone from Longford?

Wet fields, not much use at football, country music

[Rossfan]

I know you're on the wind up but a Fermanagh Catholic farmer hasn't very much in common with Larne, Newtownards, Ballymena etc.
However he has an awful lot in common with people in Cavan, Leitrim, Longford etc etc.

What would a Fermanagh farmer have in common with someone from Longford?

Wet fields, not much use at football, country music

Also nationality, culture, family names.......
Only a unionist, a UKIPite or a total partitionist would ask that question

[OgraAnDun]

I know you're on the wind up but a Fermanagh Catholic farmer hasn't very much in common with Larne, Newtownards, Ballymena etc.
However he has an awful lot in common with people in Cavan, Leitrim, Longford etc etc.

What would a Fermanagh farmer have in common with someone from Longford?

Wet fields, not much use at football, country music

Also nationality, culture, family names.......
Only a unionist, a UKIPite or a total partitionist would ask that question

A better question would be what do they not have in common?

[armaghniac]

No doubt Tony Fearon will explain to us what they don't have in common. Their sense of humour perhaps.

[Farrandeelin]

No doubt Tony Fearon will explain to us what they don't have in common. Their sense of humour perhaps.

Northerners, according to the bould Tony are more religious than their southern counterparts.