The run up to conflict in Northern Ireland

[T Fearon]

I would imagine other towns like Strabane and Crossmaglen scare unionists as well.Until we all rid of ourselves of MOPE mindsets we're going nowhere.There are bigots on both sides but I happen to believe the vast majority on both sides want to live and let live and have no wish to offend or dominate anyone.

Hasn't Maurice Hayes for example (one of the masterminds of Down's All Ireland wins in the 60s) always occupied an extremely influential role at Stormont,through the 50s,60s and 70s?

[seafoid]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Northern-Protestants-An-Unsettled-People/dp/0856407712

I am writing as someone who comes from one of the protestant communities on which this book is based and indeed who knows many of the people who were interviewed in it. I found the book painful to read because it seemed to represent, at least to me, a mirror to the heart of my people. It is hard to read because of it's honesty. I would recommend it to any one wanting to understand how the issue of sectarianism runs deeply in the conflict in Northern Ireland.
We all know the consequences of sectarianism in Northern Ireland. Interestingly in looking closely at some of the transcripts it seems that the sectarianism emerging from the interviews was not just a property of the protestant mindset, but also somewhat a reaction to a wider 'felt' or 'experienced' sectarianism. These aspects of the interviews were not fully analysed. The chapter on South Armagh was especially poignant in this respect.Despite the quibbles, this is a good book and I would certainly recommend it.

[armaghniac]

I would imagine other towns like Strabane and Crossmaglen scare unionists as well.Until we all rid of ourselves of MOPE mindsets we're going nowhere.

Firstly any reference to MOPE is a clear indication that the user is not attempting to make a serious point, but rather to divert the discussion. No rational person suggests that nationalists in Ireland have been the most oppressed people ever, but because there are worse examples is no justification whatsoever for whatever oppression does exist.

There are bigots on both sides but I happen to believe the vast majority on both sides want to live and let live and have no wish to offend or dominate anyone.

There is a lot of truth in this. But if people vote for bigots then they are the problem however affable they are to their neighbours. People continue to vote for the likes of Tom Elliot and one quarter of unionists chose Jim Allister to represent them in the last Euro election. Nationalists increasingly shun loo-lahs, for instance Phil Flanagan was deselected for next year's Assembly elections.

[T Fearon]

Whether Tom Elliott attends a GAA game or not is immaterial.It's his ability to represent all communities that really counts.You don't see any Stoops or Shinners at Orange Order parades or Ulster Scots events. All of these things are very minor.

Many unionists are hurt by the size of the vote Sinn Fein (with their inextricable links) get,I wonder how we would feel if the political representatives of the UVF or UDA got similarly high votes?

Both communities feel that they are disadvantaged genuinely.It really is time to move on.

[illdecide]

Tony Fearon...what a guy. It sounds like u spent too much of your youth growing up in Portadown, sounds like u have a we soft spot for the dark side

[armaghniac]

Whether Tom Elliott attends a GAA game or not is immaterial.It's his ability to represent all communities that really counts.You don't see any Stoops or Shinners at Orange Order parades or Ulster Scots events. All of these things are very minor.

Just like objecting to schools using school buildings.

Many unionists are hurt by the size of the vote Sinn Fein (with their inextricable links) get,I wonder how we would feel if the political representatives of the UVF or UDA got similarly high votes?

Every unionist agrees with the use of force in politics to establish the British Empire here, they generally support the coat trailing celebration of these things in the form of the Orange Order. Being sniffy about SF is crass hypocrisy.

Both communities feel that they are disadvantaged genuinely.It really is time to move on.

Whatever they feel, one side is the object of the 400 year colonisation project, the other are the perpetrators of that project.
There is no moral equivalence between the two sides in this and anyone who claims there is either has chosen to ignore the facts or knows the facts perfectly well but refuses to face up to their implication. Unionists should move on, they should stop trying to colonise us.

[seafoid]

Unionism looks great until you think about it. They are very insecure and the main pillars of their identity are fading away.
I wouldnt like to be Unionist in NI.

[Tony Baloney]

Take the day off lads.

[armaghniac]

Happy Christmas to all; Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter.

[T Fearon]

Seafoid,that's the problem,both communities are and have always been disgruntled and insecure.Thinking the other side gets all and we get nothing.I suspect that's because deep down they know damn well their heroes in London/Dublin don't want them.

A new politic needs to develop of Northern Irish,distinct from the ethos and way of life  in the UK and 26 counties,to unite both communities.That way the constitutional question becomes irrelevant.

[seafoid]

Seafoid,that's the problem,both communities are and have always been disgruntled and insecure.Thinking the other side gets all and we get nothing.I suspect that's because deep down they know damn well their heroes in London/Dublin don't want them.

A new politic needs to develop of Northern Irish,distinct from the ethos and way of life  in the UK and 26 counties,to unite both communities.That way the constitutional question becomes irrelevant.

Where do you get the idea that the South doesnt want ye, Tony ? Im sure if the North could make a bit of progress economically things would be much better looking. Northern catholics and prods have made a huge contribution to life in the 26 counties and not just recently.   

[T Fearon]

The South.(Just a few examples).

1.Accepted partition in the early 20th Century

2.Doing and has done nothing to end partition.

3.Rejected Churchill's offer of unity in the 1940s

4.Deals with the North of Ireland under its Foreign Affairs dept

5.Bertie Ahern addressed a (mainly nationalist) audience in Newry a few weeks ago,describing himself as a "good neighbour" no doubt reflecting the limit of the South's aspirations as far as the North goes.


Equally the UK does not want us either,I would readily concede.

[seafoid]

The South.(Just a few examples).

1.Accepted partition in the early 20th Century/  Realpolitik

2.Doing and has done nothing to end partition./ Agree, could have done more but it is not over

3.Rejected Churchill's offer of unity in the 1940s/ Please expand

4.Deals with the North of Ireland under its Foreign Affairs dept/ Optics

5.Bertie Ahern addressed a (mainly nationalist) audience in Newry a few weeks ago,describing himself as a "good neighbour" no doubt reflecting the limit of the South's aspirations as far as the North goes./00 Bertie speaks for nobody


Equally the UK does not want us either,I would readily concede.

Coming back atcha I would give you the following counter points

The welcome given to Northern teams at Croke Park
eg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCXVCA6Oycs

The rugby teams

NI pundits and presenters on RTE

The last president

Dublin airport and NI passengers

Increased inter island trade

All the Norn Irn people living/working in Dublin

Very few people down South consider NI as British

[T Fearon]

None of which remotely indicate any desire for unity.Do you seriously think that if there was a referendum in the South for unity,that it would be a yes vote? Even if it was affordable? Has any party in the South got a hint of a vision for unity,never mind a strategy to achieve it? Seems to me they are all 100 times more concerned about a Brexit than ending partition.

[seafoid]

None of which remotely indicate any desire for unity.Do you seriously think that if there was a referendum in the South for unity,that it would be a yes vote? Even if it was affordable? Has any party in the South got a hint of a vision for unity,never mind a strategy to achieve it? Seems to me they are all 100 times more concerned about a Brexit than ending partition.

they aren't even ready for Brexit. I think unity is inevitable long term.