The mystery of Kildare

[seafoid]

Going back to the original question. I think the fundamentals aren't as strong as in successful counties. As has been discussed, a big population alone is not a key to success as you get a lower return from townies and blow ins.

Go back before urbanisation, Kildare was actually a lowly populated county. In the 1940s there was less people living in Kildare than in Kilkenny. When you read the history books recounting nomadic labourers working in 'turf camps' and prior to that 'Curragh wrens' in the latter days of British rule, it doesn't paint a picture of a democratically prosperous place.
Kildare's record up until then was actually decent. 10 of their 13 Leinster football titles were won before 1935. So the population and money overspill from Dublin from the '60s onwards was never much help in winning stuff.

You could argue that the Bertie Ahern-ism mentality (keep throwing money at a problem until it fixes itself) which took root in the early 90s, probably did as much damage as good as it took focus off sustainable long term development and got the county into a quick fix, stroke pulling mindset.

Say in 1950 Kildare had a stronger tradition than Offaly. But Offaly went on to win 3 ? all Irelands and Kildare did not. So why did Offaly manage it? Was it just about the right people at the right time or something else ? Offaly would not have had much of a big population in 1950 either.   

I suppose more recently the stranglehold that Dublin have had has ruined the Leinster championship.

A few different reasons. Offaly did get some good men in charge of teams back in the era when collective training was only taking off. The establishment of ESB and Bord na Móna provided employment which helped quell the loss of players to emigration.

While Offaly didn't have 'tradition' in the sense of a winning tradition, there was certainly an interest. When Offaly made a breakthrough of sorts in the early 1960s, along with Down they broke all attendance records for the 2 All Ireland semi-finals and the final they met in.

There was a book published in 2011 that gave an insight into the progress made by Offaly which culminated in those epic encounters.
Discussion of the book here:
http://uibhfhaili.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5684&start=0

did the power stations/BnM sites have their own teams or was it that core groups of players from the workplaces joined the most local team? the Galway 3 in a row team of later that decade was based around UCG students

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDzueyAM3Fo

One of Marty-s better bits of work IMO...

[Donnellys Hollow]

Go back before urbanisation, Kildare was actually a lowly populated county. In the 1940s there was less people living in Kildare than in Kilkenny. When you read the history books recounting nomadic labourers working in 'turf camps' and prior to that 'Curragh wrens' in the latter days of British rule, it doesn't paint a picture of a democratically prosperous place.
Kildare's record up until then was actually decent. 10 of their 13 Leinster football titles were won before 1935. So the population and money overspill from Dublin from the '60s onwards was never much help in winning stuff.

I suspect Kildare's success during the 1920s and 1930s was partly a result of the relative lack of impact that the War of Independence and the Civil War had in the county. The Curragh being the military base of the British Army in Ireland and the Free State Army post 1922 as well as the physical geography of the county, discouraged guerrilla activity. Kildare saw little action during the war years and consequently there wasn't the same bitter legacy into the late 1920s and 1930s like there was in many other counties.

You could argue that the Bertie Ahern-ism mentality (keep throwing money at a problem until it fixes itself) which took root in the early 90s, probably did as much damage as good as it took focus off sustainable long term development and got the county into a quick fix, stroke pulling mindset.

There is something in that alright. The underage structures were badly neglected during the Mick O'Dwyer years in the 1990s. I wouldn't attribute any fault to the man himself who always brought young players through and won a Leinster u21 title during the only year that he was invited to coach one of the county underage teams.

Micko's contribution to the county was huge in terms of giving players belief and generating interest around the county. Anyone who remembers Kildare in the 1980s will tell you what a shambles we were. We lost to Kilkenny in an O'Byrne Cup tie one year and were embarrassed by Wicklow in Aughrim in 1990. Tompkins kicking Cork to All Ireland titles during those years was the ultimate kick in the teeth. Micko and the late Michael Osborne (whose contribution is greatly underrated) pulled Kildare football off the canvas. The interest and hype generated from 1991 to 2002 in Kildare football was incredible and hasn't come close to being replicated since. Kildare would regularly bring crowds of 30,000 to games in the late 1990s and I think the brains trust in the county thought it would last forever.

While Micko was great for Kildare his two stints in charge probably did foster a culture of believing that a "big name" manager will solve everything. That was evident during McGeeney's tenure. To be fair Kildare have been putting proper underage structures in place in recent years after the neglect of the 1990s when Laois and Westmeath were showing the way. The unfortunate thing from a Kildare point of view is that we were probably five years behind the Dubs in terms of putting those structures in place.

I would be cautiously optimistic about the future prospects. We have the best qualified local candidates over Kildare football in Cian O'Neill and Bryan Murphy. I just hope they are given a few years to get it right and that there isn't an overreaction when results go against them which will inevitably happen at some stage or another. There is some talent there to work with but I wouldn't be expecting miracles straight away. Winning Leinster minor and u21 titles is great but we need to put a few of them together and then go on outside of the province.

We also need to hang on to our best underage players. Paddy Brophy is a big loss at the moment and Sean Hurley would add an option in a position of weakness. Kevin Feely and Dan Flynn are only recently returned and it remains to be seen whether they can live up to their underage promise. It has taken Paul Cribbin the guts of three years to properly reestablish himself since returning. O'Neill has spoken about trying to get the two lads back from Aussie Rules which is probably an exercise in optics but at least it is sending out the message that the management are doing everything in their power to make sure Kildare are successful.

[Bord na Mona man]

Going back to the original question. I think the fundamentals aren't as strong as in successful counties. As has been discussed, a big population alone is not a key to success as you get a lower return from townies and blow ins.

Go back before urbanisation, Kildare was actually a lowly populated county. In the 1940s there was less people living in Kildare than in Kilkenny. When you read the history books recounting nomadic labourers working in 'turf camps' and prior to that 'Curragh wrens' in the latter days of British rule, it doesn't paint a picture of a democratically prosperous place.
Kildare's record up until then was actually decent. 10 of their 13 Leinster football titles were won before 1935. So the population and money overspill from Dublin from the '60s onwards was never much help in winning stuff.

You could argue that the Bertie Ahern-ism mentality (keep throwing money at a problem until it fixes itself) which took root in the early 90s, probably did as much damage as good as it took focus off sustainable long term development and got the county into a quick fix, stroke pulling mindset.

Say in 1950 Kildare had a stronger tradition than Offaly. But Offaly went on to win 3 ? all Irelands and Kildare did not. So why did Offaly manage it? Was it just about the right people at the right time or something else ? Offaly would not have had much of a big population in 1950 either.   

I suppose more recently the stranglehold that Dublin have had has ruined the Leinster championship.

A few different reasons. Offaly did get some good men in charge of teams back in the era when collective training was only taking off. The establishment of ESB and Bord na Móna provided employment which helped quell the loss of players to emigration.

While Offaly didn't have 'tradition' in the sense of a winning tradition, there was certainly an interest. When Offaly made a breakthrough of sorts in the early 1960s, along with Down they broke all attendance records for the 2 All Ireland semi-finals and the final they met in.

There was a book published in 2011 that gave an insight into the progress made by Offaly which culminated in those epic encounters.
Discussion of the book here:
http://uibhfhaili.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5684&start=0

did the power stations/BnM sites have their own teams or was it that core groups of players from the workplaces joined the most local team? the Galway 3 in a row team of later that decade was based around UCG students

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDzueyAM3Fo

One of Marty-s better bits of work IMO...

It seems like there was vibrant inter-works scene back in the day:
http://www.heartland.ie/articles/unique-bord-na-m%C3%B3na-presentation-ballina

[AZOffaly]

There was. And some of the inter works teams were loaded. There's a Bord na Mona facebook page that goes through some of the nostalgia photos. Some of the works teams were unreal. My Da played with Croghan, and Derry Greenagh, and finished up with Derrinlough. A load of county players playing in all 3.

[Kuwabatake Sanjuro]

I just went back through championship results at under 21 and minor levels in the past 12 years and checked out the head to head results with Dublin in that period. Of the 18 times the two teams have met Kildare have won 7, lost 6 with 5 draws in that period. It must also be noted that Kildare's underage structures have improved dramatically in latter years also.

Why then can Kildare not at least be competitive with them at senior level? Hopefully the replacement of Jason Ryan with Cian O'Neill will help but the fundamental reason remains the financial resources gap. It looks as if no other county will ever be able to close this unless the GAA reforms the way central funds are distributed.

[Jinxy]

too many Dubs have moved out, ala Meath

if you look at most of the successful GAA clubs in Dublin in the last 20 years, a lot of them are backboned by families originally from outside Dublin, in terms of playing, coaching teams and administration. In both hurling and football.

Good point.
Lads can't go training anymore for fear the house will be robbed while they're gone.

[heffo]

too many Dubs have moved out, ala Meath

if you look at most of the successful GAA clubs in Dublin in the last 20 years, a lot of them are backboned by families originally from outside Dublin, in terms of playing, coaching teams and administration. In both hurling and football.

Good point.
Lads can't go training anymore for fear the house will be robbed while they're gone.

[kerryforsam16]

I was wondering driving off the cork motorway past goffs and signs for russborough house and all tbe great land. How is it that Kildare  have not won an all ireland since 1928?

No forwards. Too many lads built for the gym and not for the football pitch. Have won a couple minors in leinster should be improving in few years

[Kurtz]

Meath seem to sunk to Kildare's level these days.
Karma for 2010 I suppose.

I honestly think that Football is no longer that important in many counties.

[Jinxy]

I was wondering driving off the cork motorway past goffs and signs for russborough house and all tbe great land. How is it that Kildare  have not won an all ireland since 1928?

Yeah, it's a mystery alright, Seafood.
I mean, as you've identified yourself, they have all the fundamentals.
Motorway adjacent, bloodstock sales, a stately house with lovely walled gardens, and... plenty of good grass.

[heffo]

Nice to see Kildare seeing sense and appointing Jim Gavin's ex-teammate to the position of Head of Operations in Kildare

[Dinny Breen]

Nice to see Kildare seeing sense and appointing Jim Gavin's ex-teammate to the position of Head of Operations in Kildare

Seems to tick all the boxes.

[heffo]

Nice to see Kildare seeing sense and appointing Jim Gavin's ex-teammate to the position of Head of Operations in Kildare

Do you know him personally? Seems to tick all the boxes.

Great operator, know him well - it's a real coup for you

[Dinny Breen]

Nice to see Kildare seeing sense and appointing Jim Gavin's ex-teammate to the position of Head of Operations in Kildare

Do you know him personally? Seems to tick all the boxes.

Great operator, know him well - it's a real coup for you

Great, you're a tough nut so if he impresses you could be a great appointment 

[heffo]

Nice to see Kildare seeing sense and appointing Jim Gavin's ex-teammate to the position of Head of Operations in Kildare

Do you know him personally? Seems to tick all the boxes.

Great operator, know him well - it's a real coup for you

Great, you're a tough nut so if he impresses you could be a great appointment 

Ha! I'd say the only reason he's not involved with the DCB is he's been in Kildare for so long - he'll be great for ye