French Terrorist Attacks

[seafoid]

Totally agree. However the Sunnis in Iraq might disagree and simply focusing on US/Saudi means you are creating a hierarchy of grievances which just perpetuates the cycle.

The Saudis are nuts. Wahhabism is like a once in 500 years phenomenon when logic and tolerance go out the window and hatred and extremism take over. Could only have come up in a desert region.  They remind me of Aurangzeb , one of the last Moghuls. He lost the plot as well.

The Middle East needs a global settlement. Syria, Iraq, Palestine.

"global settlement" ?....................redrawing borders ? mass resettlement of sunni ito sunni regions, shia into Shia regions ? You should be careful. You might find yourself very, very unpopular as you struggle with the practicalities and specifics of that ......and good luck explaining the ethnic cleansing that will follow.

Doesn't necessarily mean redrawing borders although Iraq and Syria are already merging Sunni-wise.
The region needs a Marshall Plan . The Palestinians have to get a state.  Saudi needs to move on to the post Saud era.

[periere]

Any "Marshall plan" will be dead on the arrival because the people giving the money will have their own ideas on what the society  should look like  and the people receiving the money will have a vastly different idea. One of the explicit aims of the Marshall plan was to stop the spread of communism. The countries receiving the money were all, more or less,  onboard with that idea. Such conditions do not exist in the middle east.

The first thing that needs to happen in the ME (and the Muslim world in general) is a secularization of the societies. They are too in thrall to religion.We have this ridiculous situation where an incident occurs in Libya and some nutcase in Indonesia takes offence. It is madness. Look at the north..can you imagine if willie frazier could take any offence against a protestant anywhere in the world and use it as a pretext to incite violence.

If you want to talk about socio-economic issues you have to talk about jobs and then you get into job creation this will inevitably lead to some sort of engagement with the west and capitalism and straight away the "US is evil / capitalism is evil" brigade start going and at that point it becomes a waste of time in going any further.

[seafoid]

Any "Marshall plan" will be dead on the arrival because the people giving the money will have their own ideas on what the society  should look like  and the people receiving the money will have a vastly different idea. One of the explicit aims of the Marshall plan was to stop the spread of communism. The countries receiving the money were all, more or less,  onboard with that idea. Such conditions do not exist in the middle east.

The first thing that needs to happen in the ME (and the Muslim world in general) is a secularization of the societies. They are too in thrall to religion.We have this ridiculous situation where an incident occurs in Libya and some nutcase in Indonesia takes offence. It is madness. Look at the north..can you imagine if willie frazier could take any offence against a protestant anywhere in the world and use it as a pretext to incite violence.

If you want to talk about socio-economic issues you have to talk about jobs and then you get into job creation this will inevitably lead to some sort of engagement with the west and capitalism and straight away the "US is evil / capitalism is evil" brigade start going and at that point it becomes a waste of time in going any further.

That sounds like WB Yeats romanticising Ireland. Or the 1916 crowd.
http://www.poetry-archive.com/y/red_hanrahans_song_about_ireland.html

Look what happened in the 20s and 30s. Cardinals calling the shots.  You can't wish religion away at the top of a hat.
Islam helps people get through often difficult lives. 

Jobs and education for the shaab. The Yanks are onshoring now so others will have to take up the reins.
I think it's vital to do something because otherwise the West is going to see more and more death.

[Milltown Row2]

On the grand scale of things the amount that have died (bar 9/11) has been very small considering the constant deaths in Africa due to poverty, famine, malaria and other easy fixed illnesses....

Its the media which has highlighted this into the hyperbole that it is... The only way to fix this for the world is education.... Without the interference of religion.

[Kidder81]

Yeah only a few hundred thousand dead in Syria in the last five years, to give one example

[seafoid]

Yeah only a few hundred thousand dead in Syria in the last five years, to give one example

there is a hierarchy of death. It goes with money.
Saudis don't do much dying for Wahabbism either. That is the fate of lesser beings

[Milltown Row2]

Yeah only a few hundred thousand dead in Syria in the last five years, to give one example

I'll give your Hundred odd thousand against the millions dying in Africa in a shorter time period... But hey you know best

1.1 million for aids alone

[Kidder81]

Yeah only a few hundred thousand dead in Syria in the last five years, to give one example

I'll give your Hundred odd thousand against the millions dying in Africa in a shorter time period... But hey you know best

1.1 million for aids alone

I'm not even sure what you are talking about now, not sure you are either. You said there had been a small number of people died, bar 9/11, (just under 3000) so would you not agree over 200,000 is a fairly big number & kinda disproves whatever point you are making ?

How does over 200,000 dying in one country in a few years become "hyperbole" ?

[Milltown Row2]

Yeah only a few hundred thousand dead in Syria in the last five years, to give one example

I'll give your Hundred odd thousand against the millions dying in Africa in a shorter time period... But hey you know best

1.1 million for aids alone

I'm not even sure what you are talking about now, not sure you are either. You said there had been a small number of people died, bar 9/11, (just under 3000) so would you not agree over 200,000 is a fairly big number & kinda disproves whatever point you are making ?

How does over 200,000 dying in one country in a few years become "hyperbole" ?

My  point is simple.... There are millions dying per year with malaria famine aids and other treatable/preventable illnesses.... Education and joined up thinking by sensible leaders would make a huge difference.... The lives lost in (which are inexcusable) Syria and the rest is miniscule compared to that but lets make a bigger deal over that...

[periere]

Any "Marshall plan" will be dead on the arrival because the people giving the money will have their own ideas on what the society  should look like  and the people receiving the money will have a vastly different idea. One of the explicit aims of the Marshall plan was to stop the spread of communism. The countries receiving the money were all, more or less,  onboard with that idea. Such conditions do not exist in the middle east.

The first thing that needs to happen in the ME (and the Muslim world in general) is a secularization of the societies. They are too in thrall to religion.We have this ridiculous situation where an incident occurs in Libya and some nutcase in Indonesia takes offence. It is madness. Look at the north..can you imagine if willie frazier could take any offence against a protestant anywhere in the world and use it as a pretext to incite violence.

If you want to talk about socio-economic issues you have to talk about jobs and then you get into job creation this will inevitably lead to some sort of engagement with the west and capitalism and straight away the "US is evil / capitalism is evil" brigade start going and at that point it becomes a waste of time in going any further.

That sounds like WB Yeats romanticising Ireland. Or the 1916 crowd.
http://www.poetry-archive.com/y/red_hanrahans_song_about_ireland.html

Look what happened in the 20s and 30s. Cardinals calling the shots.  You can't wish religion away at the top of a hat.
Islam helps people get through often difficult lives. 

Jobs and education for the shaab. The Yanks are onshoring now so others will have to take up the reins.
I think it's vital to do something because otherwise the West is going to see more and more death.

drop of a hat ? They've had long enough. Time to let go of the pixie stories.

Jobs need investment. The shaab seem like a very poor investment at this point.

"give us the jobs or more Europeans will die" is not a very attractive sales pitch on their behalf.

[moysider]

Yeah only a few hundred thousand dead in Syria in the last five years, to give one example

I'll give your Hundred odd thousand against the millions dying in Africa in a shorter time period... But hey you know best

1.1 million for aids alone

I'm not even sure what you are talking about now, not sure you are either. You said there had been a small number of people died, bar 9/11, (just under 3000) so would you not agree over 200,000 is a fairly big number & kinda disproves whatever point you are making ?

How does over 200,000 dying in one country in a few years become "hyperbole" ?

My  point is simple.... There are millions dying per year with malaria famine aids and other treatable/preventable illnesses.... Education and joined up thinking by sensible leaders would make a huge difference.... The lives lost in (which are inexcusable) Syria and the rest is miniscule compared to that but lets make a bigger deal over that...

I don t think its helpful to lump all issues together.

One thing. The middle east is often presented as a region that the west has cufked over because of oil resources. This oil isn t given away. Hardly the west's fault that that money gets soaked up in corrupt feudal systems like Saudi Arabia. And others. Ireland is complicit in benefiting from training thoroughbreds owned by these latter day medieval princes. They have hardly used the oil revenue to improve the lives of their people. They are despots with horses, racing camels, Rolls Royse yachts, harems, state of the art armies to keep them in a lifestyle that they think is their entitlement. God only knows where they have the cash invested/stored. It's beyond comprehension. It hasn t been spent on general society.
Yet some people think it's the west's fault that we're on the end of suicide bombers. Check out the amount of money a small economy like Ireland spends every year on oil. Where does most of it come from?

I m happy with the west interfering when minorities like Yazidis, Kurds and Coptics are being cleansed. Imagine what would have happened to those 'devil worshippers' if nothing had been done. Doubly so when Islamic cults decide to take their madness to cities like Paris, New York, Madrid and London. Should we just put up with it?

Course the west has to interfere. We probably haven t had enough prudent input in the past. It's been a sharp learning curve but recent events should be a game changer. The recent borders have to be reviewed for a start. That includes the Sahel region in Africa

[Boycey]

An interview with The Eagles of Death Metal the band who were playing in the Bataclan the night the terrorists attacked Paris. Harrowing stuff....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n74HBrrFnIc

[periere]

Yeah only a few hundred thousand dead in Syria in the last five years, to give one example

I'll give your Hundred odd thousand against the millions dying in Africa in a shorter time period... But hey you know best

1.1 million for aids alone

I'm not even sure what you are talking about now, not sure you are either. You said there had been a small number of people died, bar 9/11, (just under 3000) so would you not agree over 200,000 is a fairly big number & kinda disproves whatever point you are making ?

How does over 200,000 dying in one country in a few years become "hyperbole" ?

My  point is simple.... There are millions dying per year with malaria famine aids and other treatable/preventable illnesses.... Education and joined up thinking by sensible leaders would make a huge difference.... The lives lost in (which are inexcusable) Syria and the rest is miniscule compared to that but lets make a bigger deal over that...

I don t think its helpful to lump all issues together.

One thing. The middle east is often presented as a region that the west has cufked over because of oil resources. This oil isn t given away. Hardly the west's fault that that money gets soaked up in corrupt feudal systems like Saudi Arabia. And others. Ireland is complicit in benefiting from training thoroughbreds owned by these latter day medieval princes. They have hardly used the oil revenue to improve the lives of their people. They are despots with horses, racing camels, Rolls Royse yachts, harems, state of the art armies to keep them in a lifestyle that they think is their entitlement. God only knows where they have the cash invested/stored. It's beyond comprehension. It hasn t been spent on general society.
Yet some people think it's the west's fault that we're on the end of suicide bombers. Check out the amount of money a small economy like Ireland spends every year on oil. Where does most of it come from?

I m happy with the west interfering when minorities like Yazidis, Kurds and Coptics are being cleansed. Imagine what would have happened to those 'devil worshippers' if nothing had been done. Doubly so when Islamic cults decide to take their madness to cities like Paris, New York, Madrid and London. Should we just put up with it?

Course the west has to interfere. We probably haven t had enough prudent input in the past. It's been a sharp learning curve but recent events should be a game changer. The recent borders have to be reviewed for a start. That includes the Sahel region in Africa

I was pondering the other day about the Saudi problem. If you wanted to be totally immoral about it a few well disguised assassinations of Saudi govt officials by some "mystery" radical Wahhabi group for being "too impure due to their dealings with the west" might focus their minds. As long as they didn't suspect the "west" we can still get the oil whilst they scramble to deradicalize...

Totally immoral of course....should never be countenanced....

[Rossfan]

Meanwhile 122 Palestinians killed by the rogue State of Israel in the illegally occupied territory in the last 6 weeks.

[muppet]

Yeah only a few hundred thousand dead in Syria in the last five years, to give one example

I'll give your Hundred odd thousand against the millions dying in Africa in a shorter time period... But hey you know best

1.1 million for aids alone

I'm not even sure what you are talking about now, not sure you are either. You said there had been a small number of people died, bar 9/11, (just under 3000) so would you not agree over 200,000 is a fairly big number & kinda disproves whatever point you are making ?

How does over 200,000 dying in one country in a few years become "hyperbole" ?

My  point is simple.... There are millions dying per year with malaria famine aids and other treatable/preventable illnesses.... Education and joined up thinking by sensible leaders would make a huge difference.... The lives lost in (which are inexcusable) Syria and the rest is miniscule compared to that but lets make a bigger deal over that...

I don t think its helpful to lump all issues together.

One thing. The middle east is often presented as a region that the west has cufked over because of oil resources. This oil isn t given away. Hardly the west's fault that that money gets soaked up in corrupt feudal systems like Saudi Arabia. And others. Ireland is complicit in benefiting from training thoroughbreds owned by these latter day medieval princes. They have hardly used the oil revenue to improve the lives of their people. They are despots with horses, racing camels, Rolls Royse yachts, harems, state of the art armies to keep them in a lifestyle that they think is their entitlement. God only knows where they have the cash invested/stored. It's beyond comprehension. It hasn t been spent on general society.
Yet some people think it's the west's fault that we're on the end of suicide bombers. Check out the amount of money a small economy like Ireland spends every year on oil. Where does most of it come from?

I m happy with the west interfering when minorities like Yazidis, Kurds and Coptics are being cleansed. Imagine what would have happened to those 'devil worshippers' if nothing had been done. Doubly so when Islamic cults decide to take their madness to cities like Paris, New York, Madrid and London. Should we just put up with it?

Course the west has to interfere. We probably haven t had enough prudent input in the past. It's been a sharp learning curve but recent events should be a game changer. The recent borders have to be reviewed for a start. That includes the Sahel region in Africa

I was pondering the other day about the Saudi problem. If you wanted to be totally immoral about it a few well disguised assassinations of Saudi govt officials by some "mystery" radical Wahhabi group for being "too impure due to their dealings with the west" might focus their minds. As long as they didn't suspect the "west" we can still get the oil whilst they scramble to deradicalize...

Totally immoral of course....should never be countenanced....

Might work, but be careful what you ask for.

Al Queda and ISIS might have had similar births.