Search for New Mayo Manager

[moysider]

The mickey mouse match in Longford was championship Lar!

I was not using this as an example of how good our forwards were either. Just that all but remained after that disaster and all but one were still there this year.

I m just wondering do you consider some of them to have been passengers?

You say 'Why not take the results of the AI finals in successive years and see how Mayo's forwards ability to score from play stacks up against top class opposition'.

I dunno why you bring this up but seeing as you have are you suggesting that there were passengers there that should not have been selected?

Care to name them if that is the case?

I would suspect that 4 of our provincial neighbours and probably 20+ of countries nationwide think they have better forwards than we do. They base this assessment on watching their forwards play between February and early July. Their heroes never meet the proper tests of the bigger teams when things are getting serious in mid- August, let alone an AI final.

My own view of our failings in AI finals would differ from yours considerably. I would argue that our tactical nous was more instrumental that having fellas that could wallop ball over from 40- 50 metres. As if they d be let do that. I don t remember us giving Diarmuid Connolly the space to kick his mighty points that he does so freely during the earlier championship games. In the last 4 in recent the difference between winning and losing is far more complex than the tired old cliché of scoring forwards thrown out by likes of Spillane and McGee.

[Maroon Manc]

Lee Keegan has more scores from play in All Ireland Finals & Semi Finals than COC, from memory that's 9 games each.

[moysider]

Lee Keegan has more scores from play in All Ireland Finals & Semi Finals than COC, from memory that's 9 games each.

Exactly. And Keegan has shanked a few great chances as well. I assume though that you are not using that stat as a stick to beat O Connor with!

The way things develop in those games the chances don t necessarily fall to the inside men. They are swamped by swarm defences that likes of Tyrone, Kerry, Dublin and Donegal put up and marauding half backs and even full backs get the best chances to clip a score if they are good enough. McCafferty, McGlynn, Higgins, Tomás.
A criticism of Keegan is that he isn t clinical enough actually and Donal Vaughan gets in great positions as well but is a bit gun shy.
Philly McMahon's return of scores in big games this year makes the point. But not likely he will be played in the forwards any time soon.

It is only in the early and middle stages of the championship that the 'marquee' forwards get the space to express themselves. After that it is serious rationing for the most part. A top forward will be lucky to get a few opportunities to make it count and if a team is not going well as a whole might not get any opportunity.

[seafoid]

A point is a point whether from play or placed ball or by a forward, back or specialist free taker.
Did any team ever win an AI without an accurate free taker?

Exactly and one of the most ridiculous flaws in our armchair analytical brigade , why we so often take an accurate free taker for granted is stupid.

When COC kicked two sideline balls down in pairc ui chaoimh from either side from about 35 -40 yds out about two years ago in a league game that a loss would of meant relegation , I personally came away from that game knowing he was a class act .23 Ffs , please keep that in mind . Great attitude , comes across very grounded and smart too .

I'd agree with both of you on this one. A good free taker, say COC, manages to score 0-8 from play or thereabouts, there is every likelihood that Catty Barry could have knocked 5 or 6 of them over. It's the one oe two left that counts and makes it worthwhile for a team to have an accurate freetaker even if he doesn't contribute a lot in play.
Cillian can spend games with little direct input but, as I've said before, his colleagues place their trust in him and that's fairly obvious all the time.

COC - injuries and all - is not in Mayo team to kick frees. Let's put that to bed. While being persistently injured he has also contributed well as a playmaker and finisher from play. Hopefully we will have him fit for a change for some years to come.

Not having a go at Maurice Sheridan but he was probably selected because of his ability to kick frees. O Connor is a different animal altogether. He would be there if he never kicked a free and he was right. He was risked injured because he was solid on frees but still did the pressing high up and stuff. Different animal and def. never carried for free taking.

Sheridan was a pure free taker. He always the weakest of the 6 forwards in general play IIRC.
Mayo over the last 20 years have always had at least one passenger in the forwards, it seems to me.

Other passenger? Dunno who you are getting at there?

What compounded the Sheridan selection was the Colm McMenamon played a roving deep role and that left us very light in the forwards. It resulted in 2 of the most ordinary centre half backs in AI final history being the main men and getting MOM in AI finals. Enda McManus from Meath and Liam O Flaherty  from Kerry.

I'd be inclined to go along with Seafóid on this one. Mayo, in my memory anyway, were never noted for free-scoring forwards. THe only natural goal-getter I can think of right now is Kevin O'Neill. Horfan realised this and by his second season in charge had introduced his pressing high etc tactics. I think he had decided that if goals didn't come easy, he'd have to go for points instead and forwards were instructed to track back and harass and harry like other sectors on the field.  That's when the half backs started pressing forward and go for points as well. Conorren didn't realise that the game plan had altered greatly when he returned after his lengthy absence and found there was no place for fancy dans anymore. I think Horan had just about settled on his first fifteen when Andy was banjaxed in the game against Down. He would have made one hell of a playmaker if fate hadn't intervened. He was the nearest thing to a Kevin 'Neill or a P Joyce that Mayo had then. Can't forget Cillian either; I think he'd fit perfectly into Horan's plans if if he did manage to put out his preferred front six.
Anyway, that's history. I do see some grounds for guarded optimism right now.
You have to give Pateen and Noel credit where it is due. They had decided to play AOS as their first choice FF and not go arsing about with him as JH had done.
If Cillian returns fit and ready for action and Diarmuid keeps up his present form. Mayo will have their best attack for some time.
I expect that there will be keen competition for places this year, compared to recent times. It's all to play for still but it's going to be a case of now or never; time will catch up on some of the older lads eventually and I can't see many who will be still in the running this time next year.

(BTW, whatever happened to Adam Gallagher?)

Not sure what point you re making Lar. Are you saying Conoreen was a passenger on Mayo teams for 10 years to kick frees?

Here are Mayo's six forwards from Mayo's last game before Horan era.

Andy Moran (0-2, one a '45'), Aidan O'Shea, Alan Freeman (0-5, one free); Conor Mortimer (0-2, one free), Barry Moran (0-1), Alan Dillon (0-3).   Ronaldson was a sub. All except Conoreen were still involved this year.

Were passengers the problem?

Seafóid said 'Mayo over the last 20 years have always had at least one passenger in the forwards, it seems to me'.


You agree with him so I was wondering who the passengers were/are? Conoreen?  Seafóid said at least one so you agree there were always more than one?

Here's a shtab at it

2012 Enda Varley
2004 Maloney
1997 Sheridan

Someone who can't shout "give me the Fn ball in the last 5 minutes" which is all Mayo need to get over the line  ....

I hope 2016 is the year.

[mrhardyannual]

A point is a point whether from play or placed ball or by a forward, back or specialist free taker.
Did any team ever win an AI without an accurate free taker?

Exactly and one of the most ridiculous flaws in our armchair analytical brigade , why we so often take an accurate free taker for granted is stupid.

When COC kicked two sideline balls down in pairc ui chaoimh from either side from about 35 -40 yds out about two years ago in a league game that a loss would of meant relegation , I personally came away from that game knowing he was a class act .23 Ffs , please keep that in mind . Great attitude , comes across very grounded and smart too .

I'd agree with both of you on this one. A good free taker, say COC, manages to score 0-8 from play or thereabouts, there is every likelihood that Catty Barry could have knocked 5 or 6 of them over. It's the one oe two left that counts and makes it worthwhile for a team to have an accurate freetaker even if he doesn't contribute a lot in play.
Cillian can spend games with little direct input but, as I've said before, his colleagues place their trust in him and that's fairly obvious all the time.

COC - injuries and all - is not in Mayo team to kick frees. Let's put that to bed. While being persistently injured he has also contributed well as a playmaker and finisher from play. Hopefully we will have him fit for a change for some years to come.

Not having a go at Maurice Sheridan but he was probably selected because of his ability to kick frees. O Connor is a different animal altogether. He would be there if he never kicked a free and he was right. He was risked injured because he was solid on frees but still did the pressing high up and stuff. Different animal and def. never carried for free taking.

Sheridan was a pure free taker. He always the weakest of the 6 forwards in general play IIRC.
Mayo over the last 20 years have always had at least one passenger in the forwards, it seems to me.

Other passenger? Dunno who you are getting at there?

What compounded the Sheridan selection was the Colm McMenamon played a roving deep role and that left us very light in the forwards. It resulted in 2 of the most ordinary centre half backs in AI final history being the main men and getting MOM in AI finals. Enda McManus from Meath and Liam O Flaherty  from Kerry.

I'd be inclined to go along with Seafóid on this one. Mayo, in my memory anyway, were never noted for free-scoring forwards. THe only natural goal-getter I can think of right now is Kevin O'Neill. Horfan realised this and by his second season in charge had introduced his pressing high etc tactics. I think he had decided that if goals didn't come easy, he'd have to go for points instead and forwards were instructed to track back and harass and harry like other sectors on the field.  That's when the half backs started pressing forward and go for points as well. Conorren didn't realise that the game plan had altered greatly when he returned after his lengthy absence and found there was no place for fancy dans anymore. I think Horan had just about settled on his first fifteen when Andy was banjaxed in the game against Down. He would have made one hell of a playmaker if fate hadn't intervened. He was the nearest thing to a Kevin 'Neill or a P Joyce that Mayo had then. Can't forget Cillian either; I think he'd fit perfectly into Horan's plans if if he did manage to put out his preferred front six.
Anyway, that's history. I do see some grounds for guarded optimism right now.
You have to give Pateen and Noel credit where it is due. They had decided to play AOS as their first choice FF and not go arsing about with him as JH had done.
If Cillian returns fit and ready for action and Diarmuid keeps up his present form. Mayo will have their best attack for some time.
I expect that there will be keen competition for places this year, compared to recent times. It's all to play for still but it's going to be a case of now or never; time will catch up on some of the older lads eventually and I can't see many who will be still in the running this time next year.

(BTW, whatever happened to Adam Gallagher?)

Not sure what point you re making Lar. Are you saying Conoreen was a passenger on Mayo teams for 10 years to kick frees?

Here are Mayo's six forwards from Mayo's last game before Horan era.

Andy Moran (0-2, one a '45'), Aidan O'Shea, Alan Freeman (0-5, one free); Conor Mortimer (0-2, one free), Barry Moran (0-1), Alan Dillon (0-3).   Ronaldson was a sub. All except Conoreen were still involved this year.

Were passengers the problem?

Seafóid said 'Mayo over the last 20 years have always had at least one passenger in the forwards, it seems to me'.


You agree with him so I was wondering who the passengers were/are? Conoreen?  Seafóid said at least one so you agree there were always more than one?

Here's a shtab at it

2012 Enda Varley
2004 Maloney
1997 Sheridan

Someone who can't shout "give me the Fn ball in the last 5 minutes" which is all Mayo need to get over the line  ....

I hope 2016 is the year.

You couldn't pay enough for some of this tripe.
1997 Sheridan
Were you at the game or have you ever watched it.
1997 final discussions usually centre on Holmes v Fitzgerald with the great unknown question of what Kenny Mort would have done on Fitzy. However the greater conundrum is what would have happened if Sheridan (your passenger) hadnt got injured leaving the freetaking duties to Ciaran Mac. The final gap was 3 pts. House of Pain might have gone into receivership that year if the "passenger" was driving the frees as usual.

[Lar Naparka]

The mickey mouse match in Longford was championship Lar!

I was not using this as an example of how good our forwards were either. Just that all but remained after that disaster and all but one were still there this year.

I m just wondering do you consider some of them to have been passengers?

You say 'Why not take the results of the AI finals in successive years and see how Mayo's forwards ability to score from play stacks up against top class opposition'.

I dunno why you bring this up but seeing as you have are you suggesting that there were passengers there that should not have been selected?

Care to name them if that is the case?

I would suspect that 4 of our provincial neighbours and probably 20+ of countries nationwide think they have better forwards than we do. They base this assessment on watching their forwards play between February and early July. Their heroes never meet the proper tests of the bigger teams when things are getting serious in mid- August, let alone an AI final.

My own view of our failings in AI finals would differ from yours considerably. I would argue that our tactical nous was more instrumental that having fellas that could wallop ball over from 40- 50 metres. As if they d be let do that. I don t remember us giving Diarmuid Connolly the space to kick his mighty points that he does so freely during the earlier championship games. In the last 4 in recent the difference between winning and losing is far more complex than the tired old cliché of scoring forwards thrown out by likes of Spillane and McGee.

I'm teetotally lost here.
Of course the game in Longford was a championship one but it was against a Div 4 side and yet we managed to lose it. Of all the most unrepresentative games I have had the misfortune to watch, this one and the previous one against Sligo were the two that rocked me the most .We're in the business if winning AIs and anything less is a failure. Now, if you feel that the spread of scores that day means a) that there was no passenger forward on that team and b) that with that attack we could win an AI. There is no logical alternative to either or both.
You dunno why I bring up the subject of the Mayo forwards failings in not one but two AI finals! Where the hell else is more important? Is the gutless display against a Div 4 side a better measure of the quality of Mayo's attack than the results of not one but two AI finals? Cora Staunton would have shot the lights out in Longford that awful day.
Take the selected line ups (forwards) in the 2013: On the Mayo side, you Kevin McLoughlin, Keith Higgins , Alan Dillon; Cillian O'Connor Alan Freeman, Andy Moran.
How many would get a place in the Dub attack if this were possible?
On the day in question, I'd say none of them.

Now take P Flynn, P Andrews, D Connolly; P Mannion, C Kilkenny, B Brogan.
If any one of them was up for grabs would he get a place in Mayo's starting front six?
I'd say every one of them would.
Recall the game against Donegal in '12?
Why did Donegal not bother to contest Mayo kick outs in the second half? I say it was because they knew they could contain the Mayo forwards without a bother. Whadya think?
No matter what you or I think, the Donegal defence wasn't seriously bothered by the Mayo attack throughout that second half. Would the forwards we put out against Longford in '10 have won that game for us?
I'm a bit lost re Diarmuid Connolly. It wasn't the bleddy forwards that put the spancil on him, was it? Keegan could have shanked an assload of attempts from straight in front of goal for the purposes of this discussion and Maroon Manc's argument still stands. He sez "Lee Keegan has more scores from play in All Ireland Finals & Semi Finals than COC, from memory that's 9 games each."
Do you agree with him or not; is that true or false? You don't seriously expect me to name players who were doing their best but were not on top of their men. do you? I don't blame any man for lack of effort, merely lack of scores from play.
Yup; no problem in agreeing that a lack of tactical nous was a big, big factor in us coming up short in both finals but when it's done and dusted, it's scores on the board that counts and if your forwards, for whatever reason, don't/can't deliver, the outcome is not going to be a positive one. Simple as...

[Maroon Manc]

Lee Keegan has more scores from play in All Ireland Finals & Semi Finals than COC, from memory that's 9 games each.

Exactly. And Keegan has shanked a few great chances as well. I assume though that you are not using that stat as a stick to beat O Connor with!

The way things develop in those games the chances don t necessarily fall to the inside men. They are swamped by swarm defences that likes of Tyrone, Kerry, Dublin and Donegal put up and marauding half backs and even full backs get the best chances to clip a score if they are good enough. McCafferty, McGlynn, Higgins, Tomás.
A criticism of Keegan is that he isn t clinical enough actually and Donal Vaughan gets in great positions as well but is a bit gun shy.
Philly McMahon's return of scores in big games this year makes the point. But not likely he will be played in the forwards any time soon.

It is only in the early and middle stages of the championship that the 'marquee' forwards get the space to express themselves. After that it is serious rationing for the most part. A top forward will be lucky to get a few opportunities to make it count and if a team is not going well as a whole might not get any opportunity.

Obviously not  Space may well be at a premium and in terrible conditions JOD managed to score 3 points from play in the final.

I've been at 5 of those 9 games so I haven't paid too much attention to COC. I did think he was poor in front of the posts the first day against Dublin though, he missed a couple of easy chances and on other times wasn't able to engineer any space for himself when he was one on one with his marker. Take out the two Kerry games in 2014 and he has 2 points from play in 7 games, thats very poor for a player of his quality although he's scored goals in that period too. 

I'm not criticising him, he's a very good player and still has age on his side to improve although his injuries may play a part in his development. I just think there's probably around 7 or 8 forwards I'd pick ahead of him.

[muppet]

Lee Keegan has more scores from play in All Ireland Finals & Semi Finals than COC, from memory that's 9 games each.

Bernard Brogan points from play in All-Ireland Finals were:

2011 2
2013 2
2015 1

That is what happens sometimes when you take a static and ignore context.

[heffo]

In summary without reading the previous 50 pages - is COC top class and not just a free taker?

[From the Bunker]

In summary without reading the previous 50 pages - is COC top class and not just a free taker?

Ok lets put this to bed.

He is not top class.
He is not a Marquee forward.
He gets most of his scores from frees.
He is always carrying an injury.

Who cares? Some better and and a lot worse players have won more AI medals.

I don't care if he is good enough to get on this that or the other teams. He's from Mayo and he's good enough to get on the Mayo team. That's all that matters.

Probably the sh1te he is getting here has to do with him nearly taking out a Dublin players eye which needed 37 stitches in the AI semifinal.

If you want to talk about an forward who offers nothing in the scoring stakes and has a AI medal and a All star then pick on Donnacha Walsh. But it's easier to pick on the lad without an AI medal isn't it?

[Shrewdness]

I can't believe how anyone can doubt the value of Cillian O' Connor to the Mayo team. How many times has he won games for Mayo? How many times has he dug them out of a hole and rescued them? I've always seen him as a player who displays a maturity beyond his years. Anyone doubting his value and ability should ask themselves, what sort of a team Mayo would have without him?

[Lar Naparka]

I can't believe how anyone can doubt the value of Cillian O' Connor to the Mayo team. How many times has he won games for Mayo? How many times has he dug them out of a hole and rescued them? I've always seen him as a player who displays a maturity beyond his years. Anyone doubting his value and ability should ask themselves, what sort of a team Mayo would have without him?

Like I keep saying, the rest of the team look up to him and play better when he's on the field and that in itself makes him worth his place even if he did sweet damn all else.

[larryin89]

Oh aye and just to add to all that , Cillian picks up the golden boot award for the third year on the trot but sure he wouldn't get a shniff of the Roscommon team .

[INDIANA]

Lee Keegan has more scores from play in All Ireland Finals & Semi Finals than COC, from memory that's 9 games each.

Bernard Brogan points from play in All-Ireland Finals were:

2011 2
2013 2
2015 1

That is what happens sometimes when you take a static and ignore context.

He scored two goals in the 2013 final. That's what happens when you take half a statistic and try and pass it off as fact.

[muppet]

Lee Keegan has more scores from play in All Ireland Finals & Semi Finals than COC, from memory that's 9 games each.

Bernard Brogan points from play in All-Ireland Finals were:

2011 2
2013 2
2015 1

That is what happens sometimes when you take a static and ignore context.

He scored two goals in the 2013 final. That's what happens when you take half a statistic and try and pass it off as fact.

I know.

Read it again, carefully. You made my point for me.