Papal Visit to Ireland

[easytiger95]

I see the Vatican have admitted that the Pope did give a private meeting to Kim Davies. She is the woman who is citing her religious faith (she is a Baptist) as a reason for not carrying out her duties as a county clerk by refusing to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples.

Irony alert - despite her public statements where she states that marriage is an institution sanctified and given by the Almighty, she is currently on her fourth husband. So the Pope gets her in and apparently gives her Rosary beads and tells her to "stay strong"

Plus ca change....

Very disappointing - maybe PR is this guy's only strong point.

She became a Christian later in life.
He met her to re-enforce his very public message about the importance of the traditional family - there plenty of Catholic commentary out there on it

One would have thought he could have picked a better example than a right wing nutjob, who is a pawn for political opportunists, hucksters and snake oil salesmen like Huckabee and Cruz (who were falling over themselves to visit her in jail). The fact the she was "saved" after her four marriages does not save her from the sin of hypocrisy - as a sinner, surely she should have followed Jesus' teachings of judge not, lest ye be judged?

And if she was truly a principled Christian, she would have sacrificed her salary and standing in the community by resigning from her job, and stating exactly why she felt she had to do so. Instead she is trying to keep the gig, whilst still denying other Americans their constitutional rights. As Pope Francis should know, you can't be half crucified. He picked the wrong "martyr" to visit.

I don't know how she is a hypocrite. She admits her wrongdoings - she isn't championing adultery today, she isn't advocating marriage and re-marriage. Can't someone repent and be forgiven and move on?

The constitution allows religious freedom and calls for employers to make changes to a person's job or duties if it contradicts their religion. I agree she could quit but she was elected and the majority of people therefore supported her appointment knowing full well who she was and what she stood for. Someone else can issue the licenses (as has happened).

the Pope is giving the message that you dont want to hear. He is all for traditional marriage. He is all for loving everyone and calling everyone out of their sin.

Could you please quote the section of the constitution that call for employers to make changes to a person's job or duties if it contradicts their religion?

Does that include the Federal government as an employer?

"Truthiness" - almost as good as the truth.

[J70]

I see the Vatican have admitted that the Pope did give a private meeting to Kim Davies. She is the woman who is citing her religious faith (she is a Baptist) as a reason for not carrying out her duties as a county clerk by refusing to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples.

Irony alert - despite her public statements where she states that marriage is an institution sanctified and given by the Almighty, she is currently on her fourth husband. So the Pope gets her in and apparently gives her Rosary beads and tells her to "stay strong"

Plus ca change....

Very disappointing - maybe PR is this guy's only strong point.

She became a Christian later in life.
He met her to re-enforce his very public message about the importance of the traditional family - there plenty of Catholic commentary out there on it

One would have thought he could have picked a better example than a right wing nutjob, who is a pawn for political opportunists, hucksters and snake oil salesmen like Huckabee and Cruz (who were falling over themselves to visit her in jail). The fact the she was "saved" after her four marriages does not save her from the sin of hypocrisy - as a sinner, surely she should have followed Jesus' teachings of judge not, lest ye be judged?

And if she was truly a principled Christian, she would have sacrificed her salary and standing in the community by resigning from her job, and stating exactly why she felt she had to do so. Instead she is trying to keep the gig, whilst still denying other Americans their constitutional rights. As Pope Francis should know, you can't be half crucified. He picked the wrong "martyr" to visit.

I don't know how she is a hypocrite. She admits her wrongdoings - she isn't championing adultery today, she isn't advocating marriage and re-marriage. Can't someone repent and be forgiven and move on?

The constitution allows religious freedom and calls for employers to make changes to a person's job or duties if it contradicts their religion. I agree she could quit but she was elected and the majority of people therefore supported her appointment knowing full well who she was and what she stood for. Someone else can issue the licenses (as has happened).

the Pope is giving the message that you dont want to hear. He is all for traditional marriage. He is all for loving everyone and calling everyone out of their sin.

Someone is issuing the licenses after the courts ordered it. She could have done that from the start, but she wanted to grandstand and have her 15 minutes. She has no right to deny these people marriage licenses and should have been impeached.

[The Iceman]

I see the Vatican have admitted that the Pope did give a private meeting to Kim Davies. She is the woman who is citing her religious faith (she is a Baptist) as a reason for not carrying out her duties as a county clerk by refusing to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples.

Irony alert - despite her public statements where she states that marriage is an institution sanctified and given by the Almighty, she is currently on her fourth husband. So the Pope gets her in and apparently gives her Rosary beads and tells her to "stay strong"

Plus ca change....

Very disappointing - maybe PR is this guy's only strong point.

She became a Christian later in life.
He met her to re-enforce his very public message about the importance of the traditional family - there plenty of Catholic commentary out there on it

One would have thought he could have picked a better example than a right wing nutjob, who is a pawn for political opportunists, hucksters and snake oil salesmen like Huckabee and Cruz (who were falling over themselves to visit her in jail). The fact the she was "saved" after her four marriages does not save her from the sin of hypocrisy - as a sinner, surely she should have followed Jesus' teachings of judge not, lest ye be judged?

And if she was truly a principled Christian, she would have sacrificed her salary and standing in the community by resigning from her job, and stating exactly why she felt she had to do so. Instead she is trying to keep the gig, whilst still denying other Americans their constitutional rights. As Pope Francis should know, you can't be half crucified. He picked the wrong "martyr" to visit.

I don't know how she is a hypocrite. She admits her wrongdoings - she isn't championing adultery today, she isn't advocating marriage and re-marriage. Can't someone repent and be forgiven and move on?

The constitution allows religious freedom and calls for employers to make changes to a person's job or duties if it contradicts their religion. I agree she could quit but she was elected and the majority of people therefore supported her appointment knowing full well who she was and what she stood for. Someone else can issue the licenses (as has happened).

the Pope is giving the message that you dont want to hear. He is all for traditional marriage. He is all for loving everyone and calling everyone out of their sin.

Could you please quote the section of the constitution that call for employers to make changes to a person's job or duties if it contradicts their religion?

Does that include the Federal government as an employer?

"Truthiness" - almost as good as the truth.

My apologies - it was the civil rights act of 1964 that I was talking about - not the constitution. Makes for interesting reading though....
http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/religion.cfm

Read the section under religious accommodation.

[omaghjoe]

She is not issuing a religious marriage certificate, or working for a religious institution Iceman, so her religion is completely irrelevant.

[The Iceman]

She is not issuing a religious marriage certificate, or working for a religious institution Iceman, so her religion is completely irrelevant.

I don't think there is anything in there that says she has to be issuing a religous marriage certificate.
What she was doing or being asked to do went against her religious beliefs and accommodation has been made as a result to change her duties. I'm just pointing out what happened.

The Pope met her, the Pope supports what she is doing and says that moral law has to come before the constitution:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/09/28/pope-francis-conscientious-objection-is-a-human-right-even-for-government-workers/

You don't have to agree with what he says - I'm just clarifying his position as reported.

[omaghjoe]

She is not issuing a religious marriage certificate, or working for a religious institution Iceman, so her religion is completely irrelevant.

I don't think there is anything in there that says she has to be issuing a religous marriage certificate.
What she was doing or being asked to do went against her religious beliefs and accommodation has been made as a result to change her duties. I'm just pointing out what happened.

The Pope met her, the Pope supports what she is doing and says that moral law has to come before the constitution:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/09/28/pope-francis-conscientious-objection-is-a-human-right-even-for-government-workers/

You don't have to agree with what he says - I'm just clarifying his position as reported.

Her duties changed because she didnt want to stay in jail and she couldnt get the boot.

Try working in a bank and refuse to issue loans because its usury...you'd be out on yer ear!

[stew]

I see the Vatican have admitted that the Pope did give a private meeting to Kim Davies. She is the woman who is citing her religious faith (she is a Baptist) as a reason for not carrying out her duties as a county clerk by refusing to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples.

Irony alert - despite her public statements where she states that marriage is an institution sanctified and given by the Almighty, she is currently on her fourth husband. So the Pope gets her in and apparently gives her Rosary beads and tells her to "stay strong"

Plus ca change....

Very disappointing - maybe PR is this guy's only strong point.

Or maybe like God he sees two dudes shafting one another up the arse and agrees with God that it is an abomination in the eyes of God, he is, after, an employee of the Church of Rome!


Maybe Christians need to align their views with the socialists of the world and agree with everything the far left, msnbc watching liberals say, it would make life easier!

[eddie d]

I see the Vatican have admitted that the Pope did give a private meeting to Kim Davies. She is the woman who is citing her religious faith (she is a Baptist) as a reason for not carrying out her duties as a county clerk by refusing to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples.

Irony alert - despite her public statements where she states that marriage is an institution sanctified and given by the Almighty, she is currently on her fourth husband. So the Pope gets her in and apparently gives her Rosary beads and tells her to "stay strong"

Plus ca change....

Very disappointing - maybe PR is this guy's only strong point.

lets just hope she doesn't refuse to bake a cake

[gallsman]

She is not issuing a religious marriage certificate, or working for a religious institution Iceman, so her religion is completely irrelevant.

I don't think there is anything in there that says she has to be issuing a religous marriage certificate.
What she was doing or being asked to do went against her religious beliefs and accommodation has been made as a result to change her duties. I'm just pointing out what happened.

The Pope met her, the Pope supports what she is doing and says that moral law has to come before the constitution:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/09/28/pope-francis-conscientious-objection-is-a-human-right-even-for-government-workers/

You don't have to agree with what he says - I'm just clarifying his position as reported.

He's very much wrong, as is anyone else who believes it.

[stew]

She is not issuing a religious marriage certificate, or working for a religious institution Iceman, so her religion is completely irrelevant.

I don't think there is anything in there that says she has to be issuing a religous marriage certificate.
What she was doing or being asked to do went against her religious beliefs and accommodation has been made as a result to change her duties. I'm just pointing out what happened.

The Pope met her, the Pope supports what she is doing and says that moral law has to come before the constitution:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/09/28/pope-francis-conscientious-objection-is-a-human-right-even-for-government-workers/

You don't have to agree with what he says - I'm just clarifying his position as reported.

He's very much wrong, as is anyone else who believes it.

Fack ye are some boy, an authority on everything, the Pope is a Religious man, he is head of a Church that is a billion strong and he adheres the Gospel, I think I will take his opinion over the likes of yours all day long and twice on the Sabbath!

Homosexuals deserve to be treated equally and with respect, that does not mean that everyone has to agree that they be allowed to marry.

[gallsman]

Yet your previous post refers to "two dudes who shaft each other up the arse". Respect for homosexuals just oozes out of you, doesn't it?

Take his opinion? What do you mean by that? If referring to my specific point about "moral law" superseding the constitution of the country you profess to love? That the laws of the church (a church you've had some serious issues with in the past) are more important than the laws of man?

Or, as usual, have you flown off the handle to have a wee rant at me without even understanding the context of the conversation?

[The Iceman]

She is not issuing a religious marriage certificate, or working for a religious institution Iceman, so her religion is completely irrelevant.

I don't think there is anything in there that says she has to be issuing a religous marriage certificate.
What she was doing or being asked to do went against her religious beliefs and accommodation has been made as a result to change her duties. I'm just pointing out what happened.

The Pope met her, the Pope supports what she is doing and says that moral law has to come before the constitution:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/09/28/pope-francis-conscientious-objection-is-a-human-right-even-for-government-workers/

You don't have to agree with what he says - I'm just clarifying his position as reported.

He's very much wrong, as is anyone else who believes it.

Moral law can't supersede the law of man?
What about in regard to slavery? Slavery was legal. If you lived in this country at the time and you found slaves on the run it was your constitutional duty to return them to their rightful owner. Would you? Or would you let moral law supersede man's law?
In other countries the stoning of women is part of the law - given the situation and the opportunity would you stand idly by while it happened or intervene because morally its wrong?

[J70]

She is not issuing a religious marriage certificate, or working for a religious institution Iceman, so her religion is completely irrelevant.

I don't think there is anything in there that says she has to be issuing a religous marriage certificate.
What she was doing or being asked to do went against her religious beliefs and accommodation has been made as a result to change her duties. I'm just pointing out what happened.

The Pope met her, the Pope supports what she is doing and says that moral law has to come before the constitution:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/09/28/pope-francis-conscientious-objection-is-a-human-right-even-for-government-workers/

You don't have to agree with what he says - I'm just clarifying his position as reported.

He's very much wrong, as is anyone else who believes it.

Moral law can't supersede the law of man?
What about in regard to slavery? Slavery was legal. If you lived in this country at the time and you found slaves on the run it was your constitutional duty to return them to their rightful owner. Would you? Or would you let moral law supersede man's law?
In other countries the stoning of women is part of the law - given the situation and the opportunity would you stand idly by while it happened or intervene because morally its wrong?

Don't think he meant "can't". The way I read it, his objection is to "has to".

Obviously it depends on what issue you are talking about, as with your examples.

[omaghjoe]

I see laws as morals clarified fleshed out, so it pretty straight forward that they must come before law. Dont see how anyone could see it any other way.

Part of the problem with morals is that they can be vague and grey, overlapping, a total mishmash and personal. Laws are black and white with no common sense.

Conscientious objection is a different thing tho and difficult one to handle within the confines of law.

[gallsman]

Because everyone has different morals! Yours tell you that homosexuality is wrong and that gay marriage is wrong, mine don't. A jihadist thinks is moral to blow a load of non believers into smithereens in the service of Allah, mine don't.

It's about what's right by human decency, not what's moral a defined by your religious faith.