Papal Visit to Ireland

[omaghjoe]

Because everyone has different morals! Yours tell you that homosexuality is wrong and that gay marriage is wrong, mine don't. A jihadist thinks is moral to blow a load of non believers into smithereens in the service of Allah, mine don't.

It's about what's right by human decency, not what's moral a defined by your religious faith.

Is that directed at me? 

Also I think you'll find that most people's morals in Western society are pretty much the same which is why our laws are pretty much the same. Which is what allows society to function and civilisation to develop. I wonder what unifying force could have allowed our morals to develop in such a collective manner? 

So the correct morals as defined by Human decency? Now there's a nebulous term if there ever was one

[gallsman]

Is that directed at me? 

No.

Most Western morals are the same? Really? Where have you drawn this from? Have you statistics to clarify it? Laws are pretty much the same as a result of this? Bollocks. The USA is in the west, and capital punishment is legal. Ireland is located in the west and it's not. You don't think that's a pretty big difference?!

Did I say correct morals are defined by human decency? Where?

[omaghjoe]

Is that directed at me? 

No.

Most Western morals are the same? Really? Where have you drawn this from? Have you statistics to clarify it? Laws are pretty much the same as a result of this? Bollocks. The USA is in the west, and capital punishment is legal. Ireland is located in the west and it's not. You don't think that's a pretty big difference?!

Did I say correct morals are defined by human decency? Where?

Phew

I drew this from living and travelling in different countries that are Western and non Western. If you are judging it from only having lived in one country then I could understand you would see any difference to any others as a big difference, but believe me they can be grouped. Freedom of speech, acceptance of poverty, treatment of women, acceptance of corruption, are only a few examples that would have a common level of tolerance throughout the West but not in other cultures. The death penalty is one that the USA is catching up quickly with the rest of the West, they have always been rather slow. The few remaining ones are done humanely . But just for comparison many countries hang people in public and leave them there for all to see.
As I said before morals are a fuzzy mess, something you can only gauge from interacting with people, I presume you are being ironic by asking for stats? Spotty Paint?

You said "what is right by human decency" to be "right" in this context would be to be morally correct. No? If not that's fine maybe you could explain further?

[gallsman]

My point is that laws should ideally be shaped by human decency - respect for all mankind etc.

[haveaharp]

The Church didn't fail anyone.For over 2000 years it has led millions of people to eternal salvation

Teachings on contraception has failed millions in Africa for starters. Who was the church failing when the centuries of covered up child abuse came to light? I will tell you everyone that ever believed in it as a guiding light in their life, the children themselves and their families obviously. The church failing noone is like saying Jimmy saville did a lot of good for charity and music. Ignore the bad bits and look at the bigger picture eh?

[easytiger95]

I see the Vatican have admitted that the Pope did give a private meeting to Kim Davies. She is the woman who is citing her religious faith (she is a Baptist) as a reason for not carrying out her duties as a county clerk by refusing to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples.

Irony alert - despite her public statements where she states that marriage is an institution sanctified and given by the Almighty, she is currently on her fourth husband. So the Pope gets her in and apparently gives her Rosary beads and tells her to "stay strong"

Plus ca change....

Very disappointing - maybe PR is this guy's only strong point.

Or maybe like God he sees two dudes shafting one another up the arse and agrees with God that it is an abomination in the eyes of God, he is, after, an employee of the Church of Rome!


Maybe Christians need to align their views with the socialists of the world and agree with everything the far left, msnbc watching liberals say, it would make life easier!

Or he could ask himself if it is such an abomination, why did God create gay people? Or is that too much of a logical leap for you.

BTW you've got a real problem with gay people and the act of gay sex - to the extent that you could almost be accused of over compensation. You should tone it down or maybe find some other outlet for your frustrations over homosexuality.

[easytiger95]

I see the Vatican have admitted that the Pope did give a private meeting to Kim Davies. She is the woman who is citing her religious faith (she is a Baptist) as a reason for not carrying out her duties as a county clerk by refusing to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples.

Irony alert - despite her public statements where she states that marriage is an institution sanctified and given by the Almighty, she is currently on her fourth husband. So the Pope gets her in and apparently gives her Rosary beads and tells her to "stay strong"

Plus ca change....

Very disappointing - maybe PR is this guy's only strong point.

She became a Christian later in life.
He met her to re-enforce his very public message about the importance of the traditional family - there plenty of Catholic commentary out there on it

One would have thought he could have picked a better example than a right wing nutjob, who is a pawn for political opportunists, hucksters and snake oil salesmen like Huckabee and Cruz (who were falling over themselves to visit her in jail). The fact the she was "saved" after her four marriages does not save her from the sin of hypocrisy - as a sinner, surely she should have followed Jesus' teachings of judge not, lest ye be judged?

And if she was truly a principled Christian, she would have sacrificed her salary and standing in the community by resigning from her job, and stating exactly why she felt she had to do so. Instead she is trying to keep the gig, whilst still denying other Americans their constitutional rights. As Pope Francis should know, you can't be half crucified. He picked the wrong "martyr" to visit.

I don't know how she is a hypocrite. She admits her wrongdoings - she isn't championing adultery today, she isn't advocating marriage and re-marriage. Can't someone repent and be forgiven and move on?

The constitution allows religious freedom and calls for employers to make changes to a person's job or duties if it contradicts their religion. I agree she could quit but she was elected and the majority of people therefore supported her appointment knowing full well who she was and what she stood for. Someone else can issue the licenses (as has happened).

the Pope is giving the message that you dont want to hear. He is all for traditional marriage. He is all for loving everyone and calling everyone out of their sin.

Could you please quote the section of the constitution that call for employers to make changes to a person's job or duties if it contradicts their religion?

Does that include the Federal government as an employer?

"Truthiness" - almost as good as the truth.

My apologies - it was the civil rights act of 1964 that I was talking about - not the constitution. Makes for interesting reading though....
http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/religion.cfm

Read the section under religious accommodation.

Read it Iceman - did you? If she was covered under this, she wouldn't have been sent to jail. Fairly self evident.

As to the accommodation that has been reached now, as you should know, it was her agreeing not to hamper the issuing of licenses - however, her impeachment is still very much a live issue as she is not covered under the act above because she has not been discriminated against. Rather she is discriminating against other US citizens and disregarding a ruling of the US supreme court.

As for the analogies with slavery, it amazes me how easily we put white, Christian people in the role of victims. just to get the chronology here right, it was gay people who were the victims of discrimination (in all areas of their lives) and after a long stuggle they have received equal status. So the example you guys really should be using is - what if you wanted to continue owning slaves after the Emancipation Act because it (and it is) sanctioned by the Bible? That is the correct analogy.

[Declan]

Pope Francis's meeting with Kim Davis "should not be considered a form of support of her position", the Vatican has said.

After days of confusion, the Vatican issued a statement clarifying Pope Francis's September 24th meeting with Ms Davis, a county clerk in Kentucky who has become a focal point in the gay marriage debate in the US because of her refusal to sign marriage licences for gay couples.

The Vatican said Pope Francis met with many people during his US stay, due to his "kindness and availability".
   
The statement said: "The pope did not enter into the details of the situation of Ms Davis and his meeting with her should not be considered a form of support of her position in all of its particular and complex aspects."

Ms Davis, a Rowan County clerk, spent five days in jail for defying a series of federal court orders to issue same-sex marriage licences.

She said earlier this week that she and her husband met briefly with the pope at the Vatican's embassy in Washington and that he encouraged her to "stay strong".

She later said in an interview: "Just knowing that the pope is on track with what we're doing and agreeing, you know, it kind of validates everything."

The Vatican statement made clear the pope expressed no such sentiments.

News of the audience sent shockwaves through the US church, with Ms Davis's supporters saying it showed the pope backed her cause and opponents questioning whether the pope had been duped into meeting with her and truly knew the details of her case.

Initially the Vatican only reluctantly confirmed the meeting but offered no comment.

From the start of his six-day tour, Pope Francis encouraged Americans to preserve religious freedom, which he called "one of America's most precious possessions".

But he listed it among a list of many other issues, including immigration, climate change and the death penalty.

As he left the country, Pope Francis told reporters who inquired that he did not know Ms Davis's case in detail, but he defended conscientious objection as a human right.

"It is a right. And if a person does not allow others to be a conscientious objector, he denies a right," Pope Francis said.

[BennyCake]

The Church didn't fail anyone.For over 2000 years it has led millions of people to eternal salvation

Teachings on contraception has failed millions in Africa for starters. Who was the church failing when the centuries of covered up child abuse came to light? I will tell you everyone that ever believed in it as a guiding light in their life, the children themselves and their families obviously. The church failing noone is like saying Jimmy saville did a lot of good for charity and music. Ignore the bad bits and look at the bigger picture eh?

Do you honestly think AIDS in Africa was caused by a lack of contraception?

[haveaharp]

The Church didn't fail anyone.For over 2000 years it has led millions of people to eternal salvation

Teachings on contraception has failed millions in Africa for starters. Who was the church failing when the centuries of covered up child abuse came to light? I will tell you everyone that ever believed in it as a guiding light in their life, the children themselves and their families obviously. The church failing noone is like saying Jimmy saville did a lot of good for charity and music. Ignore the bad bits and look at the bigger picture eh?

Do you honestly think AIDS in Africa was caused by a lack of contraception?

No of course not but when aids is rife throughout many African countries does the church teachings on contraception help people or fail them as a responsible organisation?

[The Iceman]

The Church didn't fail anyone.For over 2000 years it has led millions of people to eternal salvation

Teachings on contraception has failed millions in Africa for starters. Who was the church failing when the centuries of covered up child abuse came to light? I will tell you everyone that ever believed in it as a guiding light in their life, the children themselves and their families obviously. The church failing noone is like saying Jimmy saville did a lot of good for charity and music. Ignore the bad bits and look at the bigger picture eh?

Do you honestly think AIDS in Africa was caused by a lack of contraception?

No of course not but when aids is rife throughout many African countries does the church teachings on contraception help people or fail them as a responsible organisation?

the Church teaching on sex outside of traditional marriage might help? The Church teaching on chastity in and outside of traditional marriage might help? Very narrow viewpoint to blame the Church and their teaching just on contraception and blame them for the Aids epidemic......

[Maguire01]

The Church didn't fail anyone.For over 2000 years it has led millions of people to eternal salvation

Teachings on contraception has failed millions in Africa for starters. Who was the church failing when the centuries of covered up child abuse came to light? I will tell you everyone that ever believed in it as a guiding light in their life, the children themselves and their families obviously. The church failing noone is like saying Jimmy saville did a lot of good for charity and music. Ignore the bad bits and look at the bigger picture eh?

Do you honestly think AIDS in Africa was caused by a lack of contraception?

No of course not but when aids is rife throughout many African countries does the church teachings on contraception help people or fail them as a responsible organisation?

the Church teaching on sex outside of traditional marriage might help? The Church teaching on chastity in and outside of traditional marriage might help? Very narrow viewpoint to blame the Church and their teaching just on contraception and blame them for the Aids epidemic......

It's not that the Church is responsible for AIDS in Africa, but its position is far from helpful in mitigating the spread of the disease. The Church's teaching on sex might sound great (to you anyway) in theory, but we're living in the real world.

[easytiger95]

All empirical evidence in both the Western world and Africa points to the fact that not only does Catholic teaching on chastity outside marriage not work to prevent sex outside marriage but also boosts rates of teen pregnancy and STDs. If we're talking effectiveness rather than morality, than Church teaching is not the way to go.

BTW I might have rushed to judgement on Franno - going by Declan's post and the links below.

http://www.salon.com/2015/10/02/the_vatican_confirms_that_pope_francis_was_ratfcked_into_meeting_kim_davis/

http://www.salon.com/2015/10/02/pope_francis_met_with_openly_gay_couple_and_unlike_kim_davis_who_ambushed_him_he_did_so_intentionally/

[omaghjoe]

All empirical evidence in both the Western world and Africa points to the fact that not only does Catholic teaching on chastity outside marriage not work to prevent sex outside marriage but also boosts rates of teen pregnancy and STDs. If we're talking effectiveness rather than morality, than Church teaching is not the way to go.

BTW I might have rushed to judgement on Franno - going by Declan's post and the links below.

http://www.salon.com/2015/10/02/the_vatican_confirms_that_pope_francis_was_ratfcked_into_meeting_kim_davis/

http://www.salon.com/2015/10/02/pope_francis_met_with_openly_gay_couple_and_unlike_kim_davis_who_ambushed_him_he_did_so_intentionally/

Empirical evidence? I doubt that. Empirical evidence would say Chasity is more effective
Statistical evidence maybe?

Regardless the same could also be held to be true for using protection.It gives the impression that its safe to do it thereby casualises s*x. In the real world many people dont use it.

Both methods are fine in theory but are both flawed in the real world.

[omaghjoe]

My point is that laws should ideally be shaped by human decency - respect for all mankind etc.

I agree but my point is that human decency, respect for mankind, whatever way you want to put it comes under the umbrella term for morals.

Therefore...

.... Laws are shaped by Morals