LSFC - Longford v Dublin 31 May 2015 in Croke Park

[AZOffaly]

I don't think you can be that black and white about it. And again, lets just say everything you say is true, and every Division 1 team will beat every Division 4 team on average by 20 points, but not in qualifiers because they are a law unto themselves (which I'm not sure about).

What is the solution? Are Division 4 teams fecked out, or is it everyone that Dublin or Kerry would beat by 10-15 points?

They play at their own level in the championship and if they advance through the leagues they gain admission to the A championship. That's my solution. You link the two of them.

It's performance linked. If you're not in Div 1 and 2 there is no point in playing in the A Championship. We hold onto this romanticsed motion of famous giant killing acts happening . They don't anymore as the game becomes more professionalised.
Longford are in Div 3 next year so they've made progress. But they need to go up another level to have any chance of holding their own against a top side.

So Tipp are wasting their time because they are Division 3? Do you think Tipp would be as determined to progress if they were confined to some sort of second tier competition? I'm not talking about today, because the momentum is probably going to be hard to stop now, outside of some serious disappointments, but maybe 5 years ago? Would they have embarked on this at all if they were just marginalised like that?  Just to compare and contrast, Division 2 (I already listed the Division 1 teams in 2015) was Down, Roscommon, Meath, Galway, Cavan, Laois, Westmeath and Kildare.

I think Tipperary would hold their own just fine against most of those, and a couple of the Division 1 teams as well. They may not beat all of them, but they'd have a lash at it.

It seems to me we are talking about this because Dublin hand out trashings in Leinster (and would to most other teams too) and Kerry hand them out as well. In Ulster what teams shouldn't be on the same pitch as the rest? in Connacht? (London and New York perhaps aside). In Muster, by my reckoning, you have Kerry and Cork, with Tipp closing the gap. Clare are not a million miles behind Tipp, and we've seen what Limerick can do in the recent past. Waterford, on Sunday's showing, would be the outlier there.


So is the problem really that the Leinster Championship is uncompetitive? If you take Dublin out of it, is it that uncompetitive? Laois and Kildare should be a close game this weekend. Westmeath, Wexford, Louth, Offaly, Longford, Meath would all fancy a rattle off either of those two.

I just think we need to be careful about how we define this, and I don't think a competition that is split at the outset is the answer.

[Shamrock Shore]

Let's go a few steps further.

Abolish county teams and draw up 16 or so regional teams that have a semi-equal population.

All other competitions, clubs etc can be organised at county level.

But senior football and hurling organised on a regional basis on a league and then top regions go onto the champioship.

Or something.

No point in me raking over the ashes of our Croke Park experience. Some of ye boys want us to disappear 

[Syferus]

I don't think you can be that black and white about it. And again, lets just say everything you say is true, and every Division 1 team will beat every Division 4 team on average by 20 points, but not in qualifiers because they are a law unto themselves (which I'm not sure about).

What is the solution? Are Division 4 teams fecked out, or is it everyone that Dublin or Kerry would beat by 10-15 points?

They play at their own level in the championship and if they advance through the leagues they gain admission to the A championship. That's my solution. You link the two of them.

It's performance linked. If you're not in Div 1 and 2 there is no point in playing in the A Championship. We hold onto this romanticsed motion of famous giant killing acts happening . They don't anymore as the game becomes more professionalised.
Longford are in Div 3 next year so they've made progress. But they need to go up another level to have any chance of holding their own against a top side.

Given the league system is your holy grail what else but a giant killing was Longford (a team relegated to Division 4 heading into last year's championship) going up to Derry and beating the Division 1 runners-up in their home ground?

The fact is they do happen with much more regularity in football than they do in hurling and that wrecks much of your premise.

[Rossfan]

Let's go a few steps further.

Abolish county teams and draw up 16 or so regional teams that have a semi-equal population.

All other competitions, clubs etc can be organised at county level.

But senior football and hurling organised on a regional basis on a league and then top regions go onto the champioship.

Or something.

No point in me raking over the ashes of our Croke Park experience. Some of ye boys want us to disappear 

I'd say ye wished ye could have disappeared around half four last Sunday.

[Shamrock Shore]

I'd say ye wished ye could have disappeared around half four last Sunday.

Three minutes after throw-in I knew we were fooked.
But what could I do except stay til the bitter end and cheer.

[AZOffaly]

This is the proposal I saw elsewhere,  but I've modified it because I would like to see the leagues retained, and I would like to see clubs get some sort of chance to play during the summer. I would be less exercised about this coming in. I would mourn the loss of the Provincial championships because of what they mean to most teams, but at least this gives all teams the chance to play at the top table before moving onto a 'B' competition.

8 groups of 4, seeded according to the league finishing position.  As of 2015, these groups would be...
Group A
Cork       
Down
Fermanagh
Longford

Group B
Dublin
Roscommon
Armagh
Offaly

Group C
Monaghan
Meath
Tipperary
Antrim

Group D
Donegal
Galway
Sligo
Leitrim

Group E
Mayo
Cavan
Clare
Carlow

Group F
Kerry 
Laois
Limerick
Waterford

Group G
Tyrone
Westmeath
Louth
Wicklow

Group H
Derry
Kildare
Wexford
London

Top 2 teams in each group play the last 16 of the Sam Maguire, Bottom 2 play the last 16 of the Shield.

[Hound]

Loser's competition is a complete waste of time IMO.

The only way a B competition becomes meaningful is if it gets you promoted to the A, and its the only way of getting promoted to the A. Then an All Ireland Intermediate championship could be celebrated as much as an Inter title is in every county in the country.

[AZOffaly]

Yeah, I see what you mean. So maybe the top 2 go into the last 16, and the bottom two are gone until next year.

[INDIANA]

I don't think you can be that black and white about it. And again, lets just say everything you say is true, and every Division 1 team will beat every Division 4 team on average by 20 points, but not in qualifiers because they are a law unto themselves (which I'm not sure about).

What is the solution? Are Division 4 teams fecked out, or is it everyone that Dublin or Kerry would beat by 10-15 points?

They play at their own level in the championship and if they advance through the leagues they gain admission to the A championship. That's my solution. You link the two of them.

It's performance linked. If you're not in Div 1 and 2 there is no point in playing in the A Championship. We hold onto this romanticsed motion of famous giant killing acts happening . They don't anymore as the game becomes more professionalised.
Longford are in Div 3 next year so they've made progress. But they need to go up another level to have any chance of holding their own against a top side.

So Tipp are wasting their time because they are Division 3? Do you think Tipp would be as determined to progress if they were confined to some sort of second tier competition? I'm not talking about today, because the momentum is probably going to be hard to stop now, outside of some serious disappointments, but maybe 5 years ago? Would they have embarked on this at all if they were just marginalised like that?  Just to compare and contrast, Division 2 (I already listed the Division 1 teams in 2015) was Down, Roscommon, Meath, Galway, Cavan, Laois, Westmeath and Kildare.

I think Tipperary would hold their own just fine against most of those, and a couple of the Division 1 teams as well. They may not beat all of them, but they'd have a lash at it.

It seems to me we are talking about this because Dublin hand out trashings in Leinster (and would to most other teams too) and Kerry hand them out as well. In Ulster what teams shouldn't be on the same pitch as the rest? in Connacht? (London and New York perhaps aside). In Muster, by my reckoning, you have Kerry and Cork, with Tipp closing the gap. Clare are not a million miles behind Tipp, and we've seen what Limerick can do in the recent past. Waterford, on Sunday's showing, would be the outlier there.


So is the problem really that the Leinster Championship is uncompetitive? If you take Dublin out of it, is it that uncompetitive? Laois and Kildare should be a close game this weekend. Westmeath, Wexford, Louth, Offaly, Longford, Meath would all fancy a rattle off either of those two.

I just think we need to be careful about how we define this, and I don't think a competition that is split at the outset is the answer.

With all due respect AZ the proof is in results and if Tipp can't get out of Div 3 then they can't be that good. 
Clare were were beaten by Dublin recently in a challenge game and the word back was they are a level below.  The league in my view provides a very good and consistent measurement over a period of time of where counties lie.

My bet is Tipp will get promoted next season and by my definition would have achieved the standard required to the top championship .

This idea that teams are going to get left behind is misguided in my opinion because of you put the time in at underage you'll get the benefits later on. Some counties will always be stronger then others that exists in all sports. The current system and any new system will never eradicate them.

[AZOffaly]

You miss my point. They are not that good at the moment, but they are good enough to give most of the Div 2 and some of the Div 1 teams a bit of a rattle at least. We seem to be trying to legislate for the outliers, the remarkable scorelines. If I was the GAA I'd be more worried about why Tipperary beat Waterford by 22 points, than why an excellent Dublin team beat Longford by 27 or whatever. Given that Tipp and Waterford would be in the same second tier competition!

In my view you have about 4-6 excellent teams, if that, and only about 2-3 of them are capable of putting 20 points on any of the next 20 or so. Then you have about 3 or 4 at the other end of the spectrum who are far off the pace. So the question becomes do you segregate 16 teams to make up for the shortfall of 3 or 4, or do you allow them all to play, knowing you have a good chance that there will be a couple of wallopings, but a lot more competitive games between those ranked 7 to 24 say.

That's why I think having groups, seeded on league finishes, with the top 16 playing for Sam is better because a) it rewards league position, b) it allows everyone to play at least 3 games and c) it gets the big games going in the last 16 rather than the quarter finals.

[Shamrock Shore]

Is there anything to be said for saying another mass?

[Jinxy]

The only way to eliminate mismatches is to create a system which makes it harder for the likes of Longford (no offence) to meet the likes of Dublin.
A preliminary mini-league format in Leinster could include Carlow, Longford, Wicklow & Offaly for example.
They play each other once with the top team progressing into the Leinster championship proper.
That gives each team a minimum of 3 games against opposition at a similar level.
League ranking should come into this as an added incentive.
The 2nd of the four teams goes into the qualifiers.
The bottom two are gone, finito.
This gives more competitive games to weaker counties, reduces mismatches and retains a sense of local rivalry.
Would it be needed in Ulster?
Probably not.
Connacht is too small for a similar system but the same could work in Munster I think.

[tonto1888]

The only way to eliminate mismatches is to create a system which makes it harder for the likes of Longford (no offence) to meet the likes of Dublin.
A preliminary mini-league format in Leinster could include Carlow, Longford, Wicklow & Offaly for example.
They play each other once with the top team progressing into the Leinster championship proper.
That gives each team a minimum of 3 games against opposition at a similar level.
League ranking should come into this as an added incentive.
The 2nd of the four teams goes into the qualifiers.
The bottom two are gone, finito.
This gives more competitive games to weaker counties, reduces mismatches and retains a sense of local rivalry.
Would it be needed in Ulster?
Probably not.
Connacht is too small for a similar system but the same could work in Munster I think.

of everything I have read so far this is, to me, the best idea yet

[AZOffaly]

The only way to eliminate mismatches is to create a system which makes it harder for the likes of Longford (no offence) to meet the likes of Dublin.
A preliminary mini-league format in Leinster could include Carlow, Longford, Wicklow & Offaly for example.
They play each other once with the top team progressing into the Leinster championship proper.
That gives each team a minimum of 3 games against opposition at a similar level.
League ranking should come into this as an added incentive.
The 2nd of the four teams goes into the qualifiers.
The bottom two are gone, finito.
This gives more competitive games to weaker counties, reduces mismatches and retains a sense of local rivalry.
Would it be needed in Ulster?
Probably not.
Connacht is too small for a similar system but the same could work in Munster I think.

f**k you. We'd make bits of ye!

[trileacman]

Having cried wolf for the past 3 weeks, glad to see people properly recognise the real cancer of the GAA, Dublin and their monopoly of the Leinster championship. The real solution is not to remove Longford who are able to compete with all the other teams in the province but to remove Dublin who are strangling the GAA at present. Leinster would be the most competitive province if Dublin were removed and would reinvigorate the remaining teams. Send Dublin to Munster or Ulster where they wouldn't be able to bully the teams around them. Munster council would love to have them given that they couldn't give a shit about the smaller counties. It's the easiest solution and one that does not require reinventing the GAA wheel or destroying entertaining and competitive championships like Connacht or Ulster.

Shamrock Shore, laoislad, AZ, Hardy imagine the the glee with which you'd approach next year's championship knowing that a Leinster title and a AI-QF were readily within you're grasp.

Lads, it's not the first the GAA has done this, we moved Galway and Antrim to Leinster before and it's time we done it again. It's the simplest solution and high time the teams in Leinster where given a fcking chance.