LSFC - Longford v Dublin 31 May 2015 in Croke Park

[Syferus]

Feck it.

That was terrible. Terrible.

But we got similar hammerings in the late 80s and early 90s from the likes of Laois, Offaly and Meath. Yet we survived.

Yes - get rid of provincials but don't annoy me with so-called 'two tier' championships cos you may as well go straight to All Ireland semi finals in May.

We deserve to compete as that's the only way you can see where you need to go.

Who remembers the clusterfuck the Tommy Cooper competition was?

You cannot compete effectively in the AI Championship from Div 3 and 4. Thats the reality.

THe championship to start with should be split into two Tiers with promotion and relegation applying.

I think we need a two tiered Championship with the winners/finalists of the 2nd tier comp getting rewarded with a place in the All Ireland series. Antrim/Longford/Carlow/Leitrim/Limerick/Waterford/Wicklow.

The problem is we're too big on tradition and when it comes down to it the delegates from these counties won't vote for it. It's a shame that pride should get in the way of progress. Winning the 2nd tier competition and getting to Croker would be a huge carrot for these sides and would give them something to build on for the future whereas what motivation is there for those teams in the current system??

Agreed but I dont know why anyone would want to train for 6 months to lose by 27 points. The tiered system has been a real success in hurling. But Football seems to be the Rubicon the GAA wont cross

What team has the tiered system ever uplifted in hurling? Hurling looks like an elitist closed shop to me. Not a good model for football or any sport to chase after.

Kerry are in Div 1B next year after rising year on year. laois have improved hugely from losing by 40 points to Cork 5 years ago.

Carlow and Westmeath have also improved. There are 10 competitive teams in the Mc Carthy Cup. There are maybe 5 at football.

All the teams you have mentioned have improved. But they are all category B teams and will remain so for the foreseeable future. All would get absolutely hammered by the Top 8 and that won't change because the GAA set up a national competition for them.

I remember when there was only one competitive team in football from 1978 to 1986!

Yep. The divide between the haves and have nots is even more pronounced in hurling. The one benefit is competitve games but it's competitive games at a level that rarely mean those teams get to experience what they need to do to get to the next level. That's fine for the counties that have no ambitions of the big leagues but not so much for the others. Tiered works fine in the league but I'd wonder if it's the best solution to the championship.

We've 4 tiers in football. The level of bullshit on this thread is quite extraodinary and is indicative of why the problem is what it is.

The hurling system has improved these counties. The idea that sticking 12 men behind the ball would have done anything for Longford yesterday is rubbish in my view. longford were beaten by 17 points by Tipperary last year who are stuck in Div3.

Says everything

Not really. They also beat and ended the League finalists' championship away from home last year.

Where are the cases of Kerry beating Waterford or Tipp in hurling? And they would be tier 1b/2 and not tier 3 as Longford are.

Different sports and a bad guide for football to blindly follow.

[Owenmoresider]

Has anyone outside of division 1 or 2 of the leagues won a provincial title since Offaly did it in 1997

Monaghan two years ago.

Sligo in 2007 and Roscommon in 2010 too

[Syferus]

Has anyone outside of division 1 or 2 of the leagues won a provincial title since Offaly did it in 1997

Monaghan two years ago.

Sligo in 2007 and Roscommon in 2010 too

Louth 2010

[Owenmoresider]

Has anyone outside of division 1 or 2 of the leagues won a provincial title since Offaly did it in 1997

Monaghan two years ago.

Sligo in 2007 and Roscommon in 2010 too

Louth 2010

Indeed.

Often forgotten in the talk about the uncompetitive nature of Munster is that Tipp probably should have won it in 2002 and Limerick should have won one if not more in the decade after that, it may be ifs and buts but like ourselves their poor tally belies the fact that they have been capable of winning it now and again.

[brokencrossbar1]

I'm not reading through the whole lot but in my opinion there does need to be an overhaul of the whole thing.  Retain the Inter provincials as stand alone competitions.  Restructure the leagues to 3 divisions on a senior, junior and intermediate basis like many counties currently run.  The AI senior championship has only been won by 8 teams outside of the top 12 teams have ever won the AI, of those 8 there have only been 2 in the last 50 odd years, Armagh and Offaly.  The reality is that very few teams will ever make another breakthrough so the motivation for players to keep going is increasingly diminishing.  By giving them a championship to aim towards then there is something tangible to have a go for.  The best teams can realistically hope for is a 1/4 final and if the ball bounces maybe a semi.  Only 14 teams have been in the last 50 or so finals with the likes of Roscommon, Kildare and Derry 1 Armagh making 3, Tyrone 4 and Offaly 5.  Sam Maguire is dominated by Kerry and Dublin, with Meath, Cork, Galway and Down interjecting.  This will always be the case and the best way to develop football is to have teams playing championship football against teams of their own level.  This will make it more competitive and therefore will help skill development. 

12 team league with 11 league games.  Top 2 go up to the next level bottom 2 relegated.  You play in the championship that your league reflects. 

[SkillfulBill]

I'm not reading through the whole lot but in my opinion there does need to be an overhaul of the whole thing.  Retain the Inter provincials as stand alone competitions.  Restructure the leagues to 3 divisions on a senior, junior and intermediate basis like many counties currently run.  The AI senior championship has only been won by 8 teams outside of the top 12 teams have ever won the AI, of those 8 there have only been 2 in the last 50 odd years, Armagh and Offaly.  The reality is that very few teams will ever make another breakthrough so the motivation for players to keep going is increasingly diminishing.  By giving them a championship to aim towards then there is something tangible to have a go for.  The best teams can realistically hope for is a 1/4 final and if the ball bounces maybe a semi.  Only 14 teams have been in the last 50 or so finals with the likes of Roscommon, Kildare and Derry 1 Armagh making 3, Tyrone 4 and Offaly 5.  Sam Maguire is dominated by Kerry and Dublin, with Meath, Cork, Galway and Down interjecting.  This will always be the case and the best way to develop football is to have teams playing championship football against teams of their own level.  This will make it more competitive and therefore will help skill development. 

12 team league with 11 league games.  Top 2 go up to the next level bottom 2 relegated.  You play in the championship that your league

Correction Tyrone 5 and you forgot Donegal 3

[INDIANA]

Feck it.

That was terrible. Terrible.

But we got similar hammerings in the late 80s and early 90s from the likes of Laois, Offaly and Meath. Yet we survived.

Yes - get rid of provincials but don't annoy me with so-called 'two tier' championships cos you may as well go straight to All Ireland semi finals in May.

We deserve to compete as that's the only way you can see where you need to go.

Who remembers the clusterfuck the Tommy Cooper competition was?

You cannot compete effectively in the AI Championship from Div 3 and 4. Thats the reality.

THe championship to start with should be split into two Tiers with promotion and relegation applying.

I think we need a two tiered Championship with the winners/finalists of the 2nd tier comp getting rewarded with a place in the All Ireland series. Antrim/Longford/Carlow/Leitrim/Limerick/Waterford/Wicklow.

The problem is we're too big on tradition and when it comes down to it the delegates from these counties won't vote for it. It's a shame that pride should get in the way of progress. Winning the 2nd tier competition and getting to Croker would be a huge carrot for these sides and would give them something to build on for the future whereas what motivation is there for those teams in the current system??

Agreed but I dont know why anyone would want to train for 6 months to lose by 27 points. The tiered system has been a real success in hurling. But Football seems to be the Rubicon the GAA wont cross

What team has the tiered system ever uplifted in hurling? Hurling looks like an elitist closed shop to me. Not a good model for football or any sport to chase after.

Kerry are in Div 1B next year after rising year on year. laois have improved hugely from losing by 40 points to Cork 5 years ago.

Carlow and Westmeath have also improved. There are 10 competitive teams in the Mc Carthy Cup. There are maybe 5 at football.

All the teams you have mentioned have improved. But they are all category B teams and will remain so for the foreseeable future. All would get absolutely hammered by the Top 8 and that won't change because the GAA set up a national competition for them.

I remember when there was only one competitive team in football from 1978 to 1986!

Yep. The divide between the haves and have nots is even more pronounced in hurling. The one benefit is competitve games but it's competitive games at a level that rarely mean those teams get to experience what they need to do to get to the next level. That's fine for the counties that have no ambitions of the big leagues but not so much for the others. Tiered works fine in the league but I'd wonder if it's the best solution to the championship.

We've 4 tiers in football. The level of bullshit on this thread is quite extraodinary and is indicative of why the problem is what it is.

The hurling system has improved these counties. The idea that sticking 12 men behind the ball would have done anything for Longford yesterday is rubbish in my view. longford were beaten by 17 points by Tipperary last year who are stuck in Div3.

Says everything

Not really. They also beat and ended the League finalists' championship away from home last year.

Where are the cases of Kerry beating Waterford or Tipp in hurling? And they would be tier 1b/2 and not tier 3 as Longford are.

Different sports and a bad guide for football to blindly follow.

Mc Stay called it right during the week it's the equivalent of putting a junior club side against a senior club side. The idea that we're going to have 32 competitive counties comes from the stupified GAA notion that everyone should get to play against each other because of something that was decided in 1884.
Enough said

[Captain Obvious]

Has anyone outside of division 1 or 2 of the leagues won a provincial title since Offaly did it in 1997

Monaghan two years ago.

But Monaghan were hardly a Division 3 level team, consistently ranked among the bottom half of counties. They had got promoted and weren't they only down for a year?

True however Malachy O Rourke took over a Monaghan side that were relegated to division three they are now arguably ranked the sixth best team in Ireland and most expected them to reach All Ireland quarter final at least this summer.

[brokencrossbar1]

I'm not reading through the whole lot but in my opinion there does need to be an overhaul of the whole thing.  Retain the Inter provincials as stand alone competitions.  Restructure the leagues to 3 divisions on a senior, junior and intermediate basis like many counties currently run.  The AI senior championship has only been won by 8 teams outside of the top 12 teams have ever won the AI, of those 8 there have only been 2 in the last 50 odd years, Armagh and Offaly.  The reality is that very few teams will ever make another breakthrough so the motivation for players to keep going is increasingly diminishing.  By giving them a championship to aim towards then there is something tangible to have a go for.  The best teams can realistically hope for is a 1/4 final and if the ball bounces maybe a semi.  Only 14 teams have been in the last 50 or so finals with the likes of Roscommon, Kildare and Derry 1 Armagh making 3, Tyrone 4 and Offaly 5.  Sam Maguire is dominated by Kerry and Dublin, with Meath, Cork, Galway and Down interjecting.  This will always be the case and the best way to develop football is to have teams playing championship football against teams of their own level.  This will make it more competitive and therefore will help skill development. 

12 team league with 11 league games.  Top 2 go up to the next level bottom 2 relegated.  You play in the championship that your league

Correction Tyrone 5 and you forgot Donegal 3

The point still remains the same though. If anything that further emphasises it. The system does not work

[SkillfulBill]

I'm not reading through the whole lot but in my opinion there does need to be an overhaul of the whole thing.  Retain the Inter provincials as stand alone competitions.  Restructure the leagues to 3 divisions on a senior, junior and intermediate basis like many counties currently run.  The AI senior championship has only been won by 8 teams outside of the top 12 teams have ever won the AI, of those 8 there have only been 2 in the last 50 odd years, Armagh and Offaly.  The reality is that very few teams will ever make another breakthrough so the motivation for players to keep going is increasingly diminishing.  By giving them a championship to aim towards then there is something tangible to have a go for.  The best teams can realistically hope for is a 1/4 final and if the ball bounces maybe a semi.  Only 14 teams have been in the last 50 or so finals with the likes of Roscommon, Kildare and Derry 1 Armagh making 3, Tyrone 4 and Offaly 5.  Sam Maguire is dominated by Kerry and Dublin, with Meath, Cork, Galway and Down interjecting.  This will always be the case and the best way to develop football is to have teams playing championship football against teams of their own level.  This will make it more competitive and therefore will help skill development. 

12 team league with 11 league games.  Top 2 go up to the next level bottom 2 relegated.  You play in the championship that your league

Correction Tyrone 5 and you forgot Donegal 3

The point still remains the same though. If anything that further emphasises it. The system does not work

You also forgot Mayo and i agree a new system needs to be found.

[armaghniac]

The point still remains the same though. If anything that further emphasises it. The system does not work

Its about the same as the Armagh championship.

[AZOffaly]

Which hurling counties are being held back due to the system and what evidence do have to back up that claim? The hurling system is far better then the football one which is a disaster.

Not sure about that Zulu. I think the hurling system is great for the strong hurling counties. The old saying that "Misery loves company, Success is a loner" rings through there. Hurling is a far more closed shop than Football at the moment.

I saw a proposal along the lines of 4 x 8 teams, with 7 games for each team. The top 4 going into the last 16 for Sam, the bottom 4 going into the last 16 for a Shield. I like it because it gives all teams a level entry field,  more meaningful games, and then a championship commensurate with their level. I dislike the fact that you're probably going to get a few lopsided games (and a few meaningless games) in the group stages.

I would be against a locked system that makes it very difficult for a team to progress or regress. These type of systems are great in theory, but the 'haves' normally make it very difficult for the 'have nots' to join the top table. (See the play off in the hurling league for example).  If we had a pure 2 tiered championship, where would the line be drawn, and how would promotion/relegation be handled?

Longford, due to this hammering and the fact they are in Division 3 would I assume be tagged for the second tier. Yet last year they beat Derry above in Derry. Why should they not be allowed another crack at a Derry, just because Dublin trimmed them?

Where would Tipperary be? I'm not sure a tier two competition would inspire the same commitment that Tipperary currently have to winning a Munster (and All Ireland) title in the next 5-10 years. It's all very well to talk intellectually, or academically, but you have to factor in the emotions and motivations of people too. Give them something to dream of. Tipperary are dreaming of winning Munster. Taking that away from them and landing them in a Tier 2 competition is a bit harsh. They won the Tommy Murphy cup, and didn't give a shite about it.

[didlyi]

Agreed AZ. People are all calling for change but very few appear to be thinking seriously about how to manage the change. Watching the Sunday Game last night and the 2 lads on about 2 tier systems, yet when Tipeerarys demolition of Waterford was shown noone said anyhting about where Tipp might be in a 2 tier system. In hurling the gap in terms of scores is considerably higher between Div 1 teams and Div 4 teams than they would be in football. The notion of KK, Tipp Cork  playing the likes of Fernanagh or Leitrim in hurling would be madness. However on a given day the gap in football may not be that large. So what works for hulring may not work for Football.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

How was the back of your sofa for that excuse of a competitive game INDIANA? 

[panc56]

So change is needed in some form. That change needs to happen in the democratic GAA world by the end of September as the draws for the 2016 provincial championships will be held in early October.

1) The Gaa at Central level need to take over the running of all senior inter county activity.
2) Scrap the NFL.
3) Play provincial championship in March
4) Open draw for 4 x 8 , played in May & June
5) Knock out then ,with two tiers , July & August
6) Both finals played the same day in Sept.
7) No replays either. Matches must finish , 'golden score if needed'

Chances of it happening 200/1!