The State Of Gaelic Football

[DUBSFORSAM1]

Lads it needs a rule change. You can't blame teams for trying to find means of winning football matches by whatever means necessary it's human nature and if your team is not blessed with better footballers then you're going to find a way to negate that by playing defensively and counter attacking.

We need a few rule changes:

1. Sin Bin - Black Card is a silly measure and players shouldn't be subbed and docking a player will open things up a bit more in that case

2. Clean catches from kickouts between the 2 45s are marks and a player can decide to play on or have a free kick... wills top scrums at midfield and reward my favourite skill of the game which is struggling!!

3. No more than 2 men tackling a player - at least gives the attacking player a chance

4. Every team must have 4 players in the opposition half at all times

There are 4 easily definable and refereed rules that could be implemented at any time without much fuss. The only fuss they could possibly cause is the Mickey Harte "I don't like change" brigade. Most right thinking people will understand what's needed to protect the game.

Also hurling should be left alone as it's fine!

1 - Black card is the same as it but add a 10 minute sin-bin component.

2 - Agree for kick-outs beyond the 45

3 - Keepers/Defenders can't handpass inside their own 30 yard line and all kick-outs have to go past this line (it's an additional line on the pitch).

[Esmarelda]

I think this thread has finally improved over the last couple of pages.

You can argue for rule changes or to let the game evolve. Personally, I'd be in the latter camp but I had always thought the black card rule should have been like the sin bin and the mark should have been introduced for kick-outs caught between the two forty-fives. Interesting that quite a few seem to agree.

Joe Brolly pointed out that when Armagh tried to go ultra-attack minded two years ago that it wasn't necessarily a bad tactic but that Armagh didn't apply it well enough. He compared it to Barcelona's high pressing except Armagh didn't go man-for-man. I think he might have a point.

What it will take is a manager with balls. To try something new at intercounty level when there's usually something to play for is difficult. Maybe a team languishing in Division 4 for years should try a five man full-forward line that plays inside the 13 metre line for the most part. This creates plenty of space for that full-forward line to run into. If the opposition bring back a few sweepers then there'll be plenty of space for the attack-minded team to play their running game from deep.

That's just off the top of my head and might fall flat on its face but would any manager try it?

The thought that our officials (I should say official as they other six are allowed to do so little) being able to apply rules involving forward only hand passing or numbers of players within a certain line is unrealistic.

Over to you coaches of the future.

[thewobbler]

Sin bin won't work at club games unless you have at least two officials available, with the second man responsible for timings and how stoppages affect them - do we really want to double refereeing costs for every GAA match.

The mark works in Aussie Rules and rugby simply because if it didn't exist, then a clean catch would inevitably result in a turnover, and therefore nobody would clean catch. Football is a different game, and this type of artificial stop/start control goes against its ethos.

See earlier point about one-man tackles. This sounds like a good idea until you try to implement it.

4 men in opponent's half is again something that would need a second official to police. It would also result in some absolutely bizarre scenarios when a ball is kicked up the field but doesn't quite reach the halfway line. Plus, what happens if a team gets a couple of players sent off - does it still apply?

As for defenders not being able to fist pass, oh ffs think this one out. Against any forward line that presses high this will result in only one option for corner backs - boot it over the sideline. You'll be giving possession back anyway, so you might as well make the angle more awkward. It's idiocy.

[Stall the Bailer]

The only change I would like to see trailed would be the international rules tackle implemented. It would mean you could also drop the yellow card as every other offence would be a black or a red.

[macdanger2]

As for defenders not being able to fist pass, oh ffs think this one out. Against any forward line that presses high this will result in only one option for corner backs - boot it over the sideline. You'll be giving possession back anyway, so you might as well make the angle more awkward. It's idiocy.

Yeah, defenders not being able to handpass is a ridicolous idea.

Personally, I don't think the rules need to be changed much if at all. If we enforced the rules we have, it'd sort out a lot of the problems.

[AZOffaly]

Defending is not the same as cynicism, and it's only if the defending team use cynical means to stop the attacker that they even overlap. The Black Card was deisgned to deal with cynicism, not defensive tactics. The jury may be out on the black card's effectiveness, but don't assign it a purpose it was never intended to fulfill, and then berate it for not doing so.

As regards the defensive tactics, and the poor viewing spectacle it engenders, I suppose there are two competing elements at play here. The first, which is holding sway at the moment apparently, is the need for managers and coaches to produce results. If the quickest and least risky way of doing that is to make sure you don't concede big scores, then it's natural for teams to do whatever it takes to win. Within the rules, there's absolutely nothing 'wrong' with that approach. Defending is a perfectly valid art form, and while I, myself, appreciate the art of man to man defending more than the systematic approaches in place to block out space there's nothing technically or even conceptually wrong with either approach when viewed through the prism of 'do what it takes to win'.

The second element, however, is probably the one that's a bit more concerned with how the game is perceived as entertainment, or as a spectacle. This is where I expect the GAA to at least investigate some way of increasing the scoring through tinkering with rules. A 0-8 to 0-6 game can, occasionally, be fascinating for the neutral but will more likely only hold the interest of the protagonists themselves. If neutrals start to be turned off watching the games because it's a hardship, then we will have a problem. Not necessarily a problem for today, but a problem for 10, 20 years time. If people stop watching the game, they will stop bringing their kids to play it. And if they stop watching the game, advertisers will stop paying money to sponsor teams or buy ads on RTE. And if that happens, there will be a drop off in the amount of games on TV, and the amount of money flowing into the association.

Some people will herald that as a good thing, but I think if there is any chance of that happening, or any trend in that direction, the GAA will step in and legislate some, probably hare brained, rule to try and increase the scoring in a game. It wouldn't be unusual across sports either. Rugby went from 4 to 5 for a try, and brought in the bonus point in several tournaments. The NFL has constantly legislated against defensive tactics to encourage more scoring. Soccer brought in the professional foul rule, and removed the backpass to the goalie. All of these were in a bid to increase the entertainment value of the sport. To please the punter. Obviously all of these are professional sports, where pleasing the paying punter is the only means they have of survival.

The GAA, nowadays, is chasing the money (for noble purposes I hasten to add) and when you chase the money, these sort of considerations have to come to the fore.

My own point of view is that this stuff is horrible to watch, but as a coach who would be more attack minded, it is a fascinating challenge. How do you get your best forwards on the ball, with space, to do damage? It's intriguing from that perspective, but it is a horrendous watch at times.

I wonder will lads start playing their best forwards as half backs or midfielders. Try and get those lads on the ball and moving, further out the field. Break through the lines with the ball rather than trying to find space to receive a pass inside. Anyway, that's a slight tangent to my point. There's nothing wrong with what these coaches are doing if they feel this is their best chance to win games, but it is not something that I think the GAA will allow to continue for too much longer, especially if it starts to affect viewing figures.

[JoG2]

Good to see Kevin McStay had the guts to firmly point the finger of blame in a northerly direction.

Half-hearted I thought. He didnt call out the Derry manager's blatant lie about "that's what happens when two teams play equally defensive"
You'd have to be an idiot to think Dublin played defensively yesterday, but there's one or two Derry lads on the match thread who can congratulate themselves on that achievement.

Derry can play whatever way they like given the lack of talent they have player and manager wise, but blaming the opposition just shows them up for what they are. 4 points in 70 minutes is laughably pathetic.

the lack of respect and arrogance from the likes of yourself and that Indiana bin lid show towards other counties is ott. Derry played one defensive damage limitation game in the hope of not getting a tanking in the lead up to the championship game. The Derry v Down will probably be the only open game in Ulster this year.

No-one, including those from counties who play the ultra defensive system, want to watch this kind of football week in week out. Its maddening. In modern times, Derry have been blasted within the county for being far too open. This is grand when playing the likes of Mayo and Kerry in Div 1 but does the county zero good when playing against the blanket (see the Donegal 2104 championship as a perfect example). What Derry need to do is mix it up a bit more. If we adopted a  full ultra defensive gameplan week in week out, I would vote with my feet as would many others. This is the dilemma the game is currently in.

You say we have a lack of talent. That's your opinion and you're welcome to it. I say we do. What we dont have is a squad of full time athletes who's only job  outside of  training is get up their arse's to answer the door when their pre-prepared meals are delivered. The Dubs need to think of all the advantages they have over every other county in the country before firing shots from their ivory towers

[oakleaflad]

13 a side is the only rule change I would consider, it leaves the games much more open, with more space and it is harder to enforce the blanket defense.

Matches now are of a higher standard than they have ever been. They are maybe slightly harder to watch than those of say 10 years ago but go back even 20 years and the football played was poor compared to today, just watch an episode of 'All Ireland Gold' on TG4 if you don't believe me.

[AZOffaly]

13 a side is the only rule change I would consider, it leaves the games much more open, with more space and it is harder to enforce the blanket defense.

Matches now are of a higher standard than they have ever been. They are maybe slightly harder to watch than those of say 10 years ago but go back even 20 years and the football played was poor compared to today, just watch an episode of 'All Ireland Gold' on TG4 if you don't believe me.

Again, I have a problem with that sort of statement. It depends on what you define as a higher standard? In terms of 'watchability' I would prefer to watch a higher scoring, more direct game with a lot of 50-50, mano a mano battles. That makes for a more exciting, and entertaining spectacle.

If you define a higher standard in terms of fitness, speed and tactical appreciation, then yes, today's games are a long way removed from games in the 70s, 80s and even 90s.

If you are talking about skills of the game, i.e kicking, shooting, catching then I think there's no indication that today is of a higher standard. There's some great skillful players today, but there were great technically gifted players back then too.

[JoG2]

13 a side is the only rule change I would consider, it leaves the games much more open, with more space and it is harder to enforce the blanket defense.

Matches now are of a higher standard than they have ever been. They are maybe slightly harder to watch than those of say 10 years ago but go back even 20 years and the football played was poor compared to today, just watch an episode of 'All Ireland Gold' on TG4 if you don't believe me.

is this 13 a side game being mooted across the board, club and county?

1/2 man tackle max could be a consideration.

something definitely needs doing. This years championship will bring it to a head I'd say

[oakleaflad]

13 a side is the only rule change I would consider, it leaves the games much more open, with more space and it is harder to enforce the blanket defense.

Matches now are of a higher standard than they have ever been. They are maybe slightly harder to watch than those of say 10 years ago but go back even 20 years and the football played was poor compared to today, just watch an episode of 'All Ireland Gold' on TG4 if you don't believe me.

Again, I have a problem with that sort of statement. It depends on what you define as a higher standard? In terms of 'watchability' I would prefer to watch a higher scoring, more direct game with a lot of 50-50, mano a mano battles. That makes for a more exciting, and entertaining spectacle.

If you define a higher standard in terms of fitness, speed and tactical appreciation, then yes, today's games are a long way removed from games in the 70s, 80s and even 90s.

If you are talking about skills of the game, i.e kicking, shooting, catching then I think there's no indication that today is of a higher standard. There's some great skillful players today, but there were great technically gifted players back then too.

I think there is indication though, these 50-50 mano a mano battles don't happen anywhere near as often because the passing is more accurate, admittedly not all kick passes.
Agree that there were great players in every generation. It is because the game now is so different to previous generations that i would always give caution when comparing players today with previous generations.

[oakleaflad]

13 a side is the only rule change I would consider, it leaves the games much more open, with more space and it is harder to enforce the blanket defense.

Matches now are of a higher standard than they have ever been. They are maybe slightly harder to watch than those of say 10 years ago but go back even 20 years and the football played was poor compared to today, just watch an episode of 'All Ireland Gold' on TG4 if you don't believe me.

is this 13 a side game being mooted across the board, club and county?

1/2 man tackle max could be a consideration.

something definitely needs doing. This years championship will bring it to a head I'd say

Yes it could be across club and county as this is something that one ref could handle unlike some other propositions. Our own county has 13 a side club cup competitions and whilst not the most important games of the year they are usually entertaining to watch.

[screenexile]

Good to see Kevin McStay had the guts to firmly point the finger of blame in a northerly direction.

Half-hearted I thought. He didnt call out the Derry manager's blatant lie about "that's what happens when two teams play equally defensive"
You'd have to be an idiot to think Dublin played defensively yesterday, but there's one or two Derry lads on the match thread who can congratulate themselves on that achievement.

Derry can play whatever way they like given the lack of talent they have player and manager wise, but blaming the opposition just shows them up for what they are. 4 points in 70 minutes is laughably pathetic.

the lack of respect and arrogance from the likes of yourself and that Indiana bin lid show towards other counties is ott. Derry played one defensive damage limitation game in the hope of not getting a tanking in the lead up to the championship game. The Derry v Down will probably be the only open game in Ulster this year.

No-one, including those from counties who play the ultra defensive system, want to watch this kind of football week in week out. Its maddening. In modern times, Derry have been blasted within the county for being far too open. This is grand when playing the likes of Mayo and Kerry in Div 1 but does the county zero good when playing against the blanket (see the Donegal 2104 championship as a perfect example). What Derry need to do is mix it up a bit more. If we adopted a  full ultra defensive gameplan week in week out, I would vote with my feet as would many others. This is the dilemma the game is currently in.

You say we have a lack of talent. That's your opinion and you're welcome to it. I say we do. What we dont have is a squad of full time athletes who's only job  outside of  training is get up their arse's to answer the door when their pre-prepared meals are delivered. The Dubs need to think of all the advantages they have over every other county in the country before firing shots from their ivory towers

Indeed! The Dubs are some craic as the saviours of Football when they choked last year against Donegal and look like they'll struggle again this year with the same problem. Surely a County with the resources/back room team the Dubs have they would be able to work it out. I think the problem is that we didn't go down and roll over to them again. Either we get beat by 20 pts again and have everybody boo us or play that negative shite and keep it within 5 and stil get booed. I know I'd rather run the Dubs close.

We have a number of problems in Derry which we are well aware of but we need to be able to perform like that and do it better if we are to prosper in the Ulster Championship!

[blewuporstuffed]

Lads , I would be very careful about changing any rules that fundamentally change the way the game is played. Even the slightest rule change can lead to unexpected ( and sometimes unwanted ) side effects.
IMO one of the main reasons that mangers have opted to pull etra defensive players back is becuase it has become so difficult to defend one on one in the current game with the reduction in physicality and introduction of the 'tick' etc. (i.e. it is some much esier to pick up cards in the modern game than it was in the past and this leaves tight marking so much more difficult).
.

[Bingo]

I don't know the answers but some times a tight game between two good teams can be "entertaining" as scores are at a premium and can be interesting to watch the tactical game going on. However, that is only the case in knockout and when the stakes are high.

Saturdays game was none of this. It lacked the pace and intensity but had all the bad elements.

What is telling is that once Derry went behind they had no answer and couldn't change as the players where dead on their feet. Maybe if Dublin had taken the lead earlier they'd have been forced to change. Mind you Dublin played a part.

Something will change but not for the better. Each year teams are getting fitter and stronger and under the current professional set ups, this isn't going to change. So teams are going to get better at this type of set up and continue it.

Change will only come from the top when the crowds turn away and this will happen. If Derry and Dublin meet again, how many will pay to see it? Not the same numbers from the weekend. This can the case for many counties. It says a lot that the soccer was easier to watch last night and had far more of an atmosphere than a lot of Gaelic matches, and it was far from a classic but you had two teams trying to win rather than trying not to lose.