New Catholic Church/ DUP coalition! Is this they way forward?

[T Fearon]

1 Timothy 1:10-11

The sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.

LCohen could scripture be any more explicit?

[muppet]

1 Timothy 1:10-11

The sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.

LCohen could scripture be any more explicit?

Timothy 2:12: "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent."

There you go Tony. Equal rights for women is sacrilegious. In fact getting married under our current laws will probably mean we all go to hell, according to St. Paul. He would probably have flipped at the notion of a female teacher.

Of Paul's view of things is far more influential over the Christian world than any other single individual's, including Jesus. It was believed that he wrote most of the New Testament, but even if he didn't, the book mistakenly attributed to him were almost certainly written by people heavily influenced by him and based on his writings. Of course Paul wasn't one of the Apostles and didn't know Jesus before His crucifixion. Yet his writings are 'The Word of God'.

[T Fearon]

We are talking specifically about homosexuality here.Other points you allude to are open to wide interpretation.

[muppet]

We are talking specifically about homosexuality here.Other points you allude to are open to wide interpretation.

So let me get this right, your quote from Timothy is to be taken as the absolute literal Word of God. You sentence doesn't even make sense as a sentence.

Meanwhile this quote from Timothy "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent." is 'wide open to interpretation'.

Not it isn't, it is a proper sentence and the meaning is unambiguous.

Back to your quote: 'The sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.'

This obviously excludes women who practise homosexuality, so they are fine. But more importantly there is no main clause to the quote. It is meaningless. Unless of course you have only taken part of the quote.

[muppet]

Here is the full paragraph:

8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

At least this makes sense.

[muppet]

And here is the full verse on women:

11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Tony is bearing false witness if he is claiming that the former is absolute and the latter is 'wide open to interpretation'.

They are from the same book and same author and both from The New Testament. It cannot be argued that they don't have equal weighting. They are either both The Word of God or neither are.

[T Fearon]

Often amazes me the biblical knowledge those who claim to be non believers have. Who are you trying to convince? Me or yourself?

The point about women is they are the fairer sex to be looked after and guided by men.Simple as that.But the point about homisexuality is clear and unambiguous.

[haveaharp]

Often amazes me the biblical knowledge those who claim to be non believers have. Who are you trying to convince? Me or yourself?

You can be an expert in the lord of the rings or any other work of fiction. Doesn't mean that you necessarily think it happened.

[muppet]

Often amazes me the biblical knowledge those who claim to be non believers have. Who are you trying to convince? Me or yourself?

The point about women is they are the fairer sex to be looked after and guided by men.Simple as that.But the point about homisexuality is clear and unambiguous.

Firstly I do try to my homework before I make up mind, rather than eating whatever is put in front of me.

Secondly, you are bearing false witness again Tony. That is not what St. Paul says. He is crystal clear on the matter of women, far clearer than in your quote.

Your Tim 1:10 quote gives a debatable reference to 'The Law'. My quote: 'A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.' is unambiguous no matter how you to try to cherry-pick it.

Now off home with ye and tell your missus to 'be quite' and give 'full submission'. Let us know how you get on. 

Also I expect you to be down at the local school with your DUP friends protesting about women teachers.

[Hardy]

1 Timothy 1:10-11

The sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.

LCohen could scripture be any more explicit?

That seems to be from the "New International Version" of the bible. The fact that the bible seems to have "versions" is a bit of a stumbling block for the contention that it is the immutable word of God, but never mind that for now. This "New International Version" of the bible turns out to be the word, not of God, but of Howard Long, a General Electric engineer.

Howard, B.E. seems to be endowed with a more creative imagination than most of us engineering types, who tend to be a wee bit picky about stuff. None of that punctiliousness for Howard, who opens the sluice gate on his creative juices and skilfully transforms the original Verse 10 of Timothy, Chapter 1 from the King James version.

Here is the original Verse 10 - clearly it needed a bit of touching up:
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Howard puts Roget it the shade, doesn't he?

[muppet]

For balance here is the King James version go Timothy 2:11

"1 Timothy 2:11-15King James Version (KJV)

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

Amazing the differences though between the versions. Remember these versions are in English. Imagine the problem with translations from long extinct languages and the debates that could be had over single words, never mind subjective issues.

[T Fearon]

Every individual has to make their own interpretation according to context.I am fine with those who like muppet (although I disagree) who believe women should be demeaned,equally I respect the views of non believers,is it too much to ask for my views to be accorded similar respect?

[muppet]

Every individual has to make their own interpretation according to context.I am fine with those who like muppet (although I disagree) who believe women should be demeaned,equally I respect the views of non believers,is it too much to ask for my views to be accorded similar respect?

Bearing false witness again Tony? You ask your views to be respected when you blatantly lie about mine?

Feck it will be hot down there.

You are cherry picking what to believe to suit your prejudices. You then hide behind religion, the DUP or whatever is handy to justify it.

I didn't propose demeaning women (I note that you are 'fine' with this btw). I pointed out that The Bible demeans women. Without  ambiguity.

[T Fearon]

Your interpretation again.I don't have any prejudices just my own views of what's right and wrong,largely based on religious belief supported by instinct.

[deiseach]

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less."