The same-sex marriage referendum debate

[Sidney]

A brother and sister can also procreate. If, as armaghniac believes, procreation is the basis for marriage, logic and consistency demands their inclusion.

[easytiger95]

I have to say I am sickened by not just the generalisations used here, but the casual willingness to sterotype other families arrangements as outside the "norm". There is no norm. Anyone unlucky enough to have had any experience of marriage breakdown knows there is no perfect way to deal with it. People are just people, and their flaws are what define them.

But of course, the father in the case above must have been "a complete bollix". Some of the No sides willingness to pigeonhole and rate relationships shows not only do they have no concept of equality, but an almost sociopathic lack of empathy with other people.

I cannot win here. Gallsman produced an example where a stepfather had done a better job than a biological father, I agreed that the biological father wasn't great, and you attack me!!!

Imagine how children being raised by gay parents now feel, given where they stand on the sliding scale of normality? Or children from one parent homes? Or children of divorced and separated couples? They don't rank up there on the scale either.

And then they have the gall to say that they are motivated by concern for children, when they are the prime manufacturers of propaganda guaranteed to lower the self worth of these children?

I said nothing about such children, only about the conduct of their parents. I admire the children for making a go of things in less than ideal circumstances.

God give me strength. And hopefully He'll give a copy of our constitution to some on these boards to read and understand - that we commit to cherish all the children of the state equally.

Indeed, we strive to give them an equal right to a father and mother.

This rant was typical of the conduct of this debate. They talk about equality, while proposing that further groups be added to the unequal status of marriage, but refuse to justify this. They say that others should not judge, while calling them bigots and homophobes. They invoke God, while abusing those who believe in God.
And as for rating thing, how on earth can any public policy be made if there no willingness to identify what you want to do. Are the road safety campaigns to be abolished because they stereotype people who speed? Are the campaigns to encourage parents to feed their children more veg and less biscuits to be canned because people are just people?

If find this argument quite incredible. It is ok for you to say a No vote is 'support' for something, yet examining what a Yes vote could be is 'Once again the use of negative language'.

Then you state that marriage is something that society should support. But only on your terms. Society it seems must be as you see it.

But regardless, you never even approached explaining how allowing same-sex marriage 'undermines' or goes against supporting, or however you want to describe it, any of the normal arrangements I listed. You simply outlined why you thought they were fine. How is your No vote 'supporting' these arrangements?

You may not agree with my points, but there is nothing incredible about them.

I've been entirely logical and consistent, which is more than can be said for some. Society supports marriage because it brings men and women together to have their own children, adding in groups who do not this can only reduce support for marriage.  You may want this, but I do not.

Firstly, the example given was of a girl who was given away by her stepfather rather than her father. It was you who took the logical leap (not your first and not your last) of assumimg the father must be a complete bollix. Because you like labeling and stereotyping people.

Secondly "I didnt' say anything about the kids, I just commented on the conduct of their parents" doesn't wash. Do you have kids? Do you have any idea how familial ties work? do you have any idea what it does to kids when you tell them "your situation is less than ideal" or less "normal"? A few pages back you were saying that the children of homosexual parents would not be able to experience the full gamut of the human race, unlike childen of heterosexual relatonships. And you dare to squeal about being judged?

"they talk about equality whilst trying to add groups to the unequal status of marriage and fail to justify this" - and the award for most tortuous and obtuse sentence ever goes to....

The problem your No argument has Armaghniac - and I'll just lay this at your door, because I'd hate to label anyone else - is that when you try to argue logically against it, you come up with bizarre sentences like the one above. It has no internal logic. It is bankrupt intellectually. Every social progression ever made was to make an unequal situation more equal, but to even argue that with you dignifies the ridiculous artifices you hide behind. Hardy spent two pages trying to get you to get you to clarify your position on why we are even talking about children, when the law has already been changed to allow same sex couples adopt.

But the worst thing is, your argument is emotionally tone deaf. You cannot conceive yourself in anyone else's position so everybody becomes figures on your sliding scale of normality. You have no idea the damage that this does to children, who, for whatever reason, do not have a mother and father together. And that is why your argument will fail. Because most people have compassion and will vote compassionately.

Cherishing all the children of the Republic equally does not mean providing them with an identikit mother and father - it means giving them respect whatever their background, providing them with support should they need it, giving them the opportunity to explore their potential and welcoming the diverse experiences that can only add to the life of this State.

Oh and by the way, I never called you a homophobe. If I ever want to, I'll do it straight out. So until then, stop bleating about it.

[topcuppla]

You haven't.It is irrefutable

ONeill says it is on some American cartoon, seems to me that makes it very natural!

[J70]

You haven't.It is irrefutable

So you still think homosexual behaviour doesn't exist in nature?

Either he is willfully deaf\blind\impervious to logic\evidence, or he is using some narrow,  religious definition of the word "natural".

[gallsman]

You haven't.It is irrefutable

ONeill says it is on some American cartoon, seems to me that makes it very natural!

No he didn't.

[Maguire01]

So for all the parents who think homosexuality is a natural normal trait can I ask one question.  When teaching your child about the facts of life, do you also include homosexual teaching

Yes! Why the fook wouldn't I?

As I keep saying it is very easy to type a collection of words together on any forum, so your kids I would say are older what teenagers, at age 10 or 11 whenever you were teaching them the facts of life you told them about homosexual relations and how that is a normal natural human trait, I would say I smell bullshit, but fair play for trying to look progressive.

So your argument is "I don't like gays and I couldn't picture myself teaching my kids that its ok to be gay, therefore, no one else can or could think differently"?

J70, you're better off not engaging with this topcupler or fearon either. They are abhorrent human beings and they are the ones who should be castigated not homosexuals. To say that children raised with 2 mothers or 2 fathers are more likely to be abused is an absolutely disgusting thing to say and something that should not be said without some evidence. What future is there for teenagers or young adults who come to the realisation that they are gay when they come up against bigotry of this kind, it is truly evil to show such disdain for your fellow human being.

And it is truly evil to allow two adult men to raise a young child, I never mentioned anything about sexual abuse just to be clear, I am talking about the absence of a mother and a normal family home, you can say what you want but a child needs a mother more than a father, and yes there are bad mothers but to allow two men to adopt a child is fundamentally wrong in my opinion, but hey use the homophobic card why don't you.

I think you need to step back and have a bit of perspective. If a mother dies or walks out and a father raises the children on his own, then presumably that's ok, if not ideal? But add another male and it becomes 'truly evil'?  What if it's a father and a grandfather? Or two brothers?

[AZOffaly]

Guys, I'm trying to find out the new, updated differences between the Civil Partnership legislation, and the rights a married couple have. Apparently a professor in Maynooth identified 21, as a lot of the original 169 have been closed off via legislation since the website I consulted (referred to earlier on) was updated. Has anyone a concise list of what Gay couples are not entitled to that Straight couples are?

[Maguire01]

I say again anyone of the internet warriors here would shit a brick if their son / daughter told them they were gay, irrespective of what shite they spout here.  To say you would not be disappointed is a complete lie.

Some would, some wouldn't - don't judge everyone by your standards. Many people will have gay family members and won't get that excited by such a scenario. Others will be disappointed. But many of those same people will still vote Yes, because they love their children and in a future scenario where their child does tell them that they're gay, they don't want to deny them the same opportunity to marry.

In primary school party invites come home most weeks and it appears all girls invite all girls and all boys invite all boys, I drop my youngest who is 5 off at a house or soft ball area and collect a few hours later.  If my youngest came home with a party invite from a child who's parents were Barry and Paddy they certainly wouldn't be dropped off to that party and I bet it would not be alone with reservations. 

Then you're the problem. And it's more likely that your children will be the ones making it difficult for child who has Barry and Paddy as parents.

[topcuppla]

Maguire you know nothing about my children so I would ask you to wind your neck in, you are seriously accusing a 5 year old you don't know to be a bully in a hypothetical situation, you are some boy, I think you have a few issues there.  On another note ONeill still hasn't answered or any parent who thinks the act of homosexuality is a completely normal trait in humans how they go about explaining this to their kids at 10 or 11 when explaining the facts of life?    My oldest is 11 they had a talk in school,  homosexuality wasn't mentioned, is the education system failing our kids not telling them that as well as boys and girls, boys and boys and girls and girls are totally normal, as well as transgenders and explaining the whole lesbian and gay community.  As a responsible parent should I be pulling my 11 year old aside and telling them about these options, are their books that could help me, or can parents here tell me how they explained the totally natural human trait of homosexuality to their child?

[armaghniac]

A brother and sister can also procreate. If, as armaghniac believes, procreation is the basis for marriage, logic and consistency demands their inclusion.

That's a mature contribution, a concise statement of the yes argument, let everyone do everything.

But the worst thing is, your argument is emotionally tone deaf. You cannot conceive yourself in anyone else's position so everybody becomes figures on your sliding scale of normality. You have no idea the damage that this does to children, who, for whatever reason, do not have a mother and father together. And that is why your argument will fail. Because most people have compassion and will vote compassionately.

Cherishing all the children of the Republic equally does not mean providing them with an identikit mother and father - it means giving them respect whatever their background, providing them with support should they need it, giving them the opportunity to explore their potential and welcoming the diverse experiences that can only add to the life of this State.

Well then why not just abolish marriage and make everyone the same? That meets your objectives. If you believe that marriage should exist as a legally privileged then it is appropriate to discuss the conditions of admission to this inequality.

[J70]

Maguire you know nothing about my children so I would ask you to wind your neck in, you are seriously accusing a 5 year old you don't know to be a bully in a hypothetical situation, you are some boy, I think you have a few issues there.  On another note ONeill still hasn't answered or any parent who thinks the act of homosexuality is a completely normal trait in humans how they go about explaining this to their kids at 10 or 11 when explaining the facts of life?    My oldest is 11 they had a talk in school,  homosexuality wasn't mentioned, is the education system failing our kids not telling them that as well as boys and girls, boys and boys and girls and girls are totally normal, as well as transgenders and explaining the whole lesbian and gay community.  As a responsible parent should I be pulling my 11 year old aside and telling them about these options, are their books that could help me, or can parents here tell me how they explained the totally natural human trait of homosexuality to their child?

Judging from your sarcastic, hysterical tone, it looks like you're very genuine about looking for guidance from advocates of tolerance in explaining this stuff to your kids. 

How are YOU going to explain homosexuality to your kids? Presumably it will come up at some point? That they're evil/deviant/perverted/sick/paedophiles etc. etc.?

Personally, I would explain it to them that some people are different, and that is ok, the same as skin colour. Depending on the age of the child, the depth of the details will vary. If in the future, they were to find themselves confused and conflicted about their sexuality, I certainly would not want them to be afraid of coming to me because I had been expressing contempt and hatred for homosexuals in the past.

[Maguire01]

Maguire you know nothing about my children so I would ask you to wind your neck in, you are seriously accusing a 5 year old you don't know to be a bully in a hypothetical situation, you are some boy, I think you have a few issues there. 

Of course I know nothing about your children, and it wasn't my intention to make any accusation. You raised a hypothetical situation, so let's have a hypothetical child of a parent who won't let their child go to a birthday party of another child who has same sex parents. How is this situation explained to the child? How is this likely to influence how those children interact thereafter? If parents aren't tolerant, are their children likely to be?

[topcuppla]

Judging from your sarcastic, hysterical tone, it looks like you're very genuine about looking for guidance from advocates of tolerance in explaining this stuff to your kids. 

How are YOU going to explain homosexuality to your kids? Presumably it will come up at some point? That they're evil/deviant/perverted/sick/paedophiles etc. etc.?

Personally, I would explain it to them that some people are different, and that is ok, the same as skin colour. Depending on the age of the child, the depth of the details will vary. If in the future, they were to find themselves confused and conflicted about their sexuality, I certainly would not want them to be afraid of coming to me because I had been expressing contempt and hatred for homosexuals in the past.

The point is if it is a normal trait in humans does one explain the facts of life - male and female, conceiving a child and all that, but then say this also could not apply to you son / daughter as homosexuality and being with a partner of the same sex is also very normal human behaviour, and what age do you tell them is 10 or 11 OK for this as well?  How much detail does one go into, do you explain this to all kids even those you don't believe to be gay, it is all very confusing.  As for the bit in bold - doesn't cover yourself in glory there.

[gallsman]

I call bullshit on this pathetic, bigoted, homophobic gobshite having kids. He's clearly about 16.

If not, I pity you, your other half, your kids and your family.

[topcuppla]

Maguire you know nothing about my children so I would ask you to wind your neck in, you are seriously accusing a 5 year old you don't know to be a bully in a hypothetical situation, you are some boy, I think you have a few issues there. 

Of course I know nothing about your children, and it wasn't my intention to make any accusation. You raised a hypothetical situation, so let's have a hypothetical child of a parent who won't let their child go to a birthday party of another child who has same sex parents. How is this situation explained to the child? How is this likely to influence how those children interact thereafter? If parents aren't tolerant, are their children likely to be?

I would not feel comfortable dropping my child off with one man let alone two, I certainly wouldn't be telling my child of 5 my reasoning, I don't think any parent would, they are 5,  I would just make up and excuse for their inability to attend.