Enda McNulty-Admits Armagh were failures!

[tbrick18]

If your Granny had balls she'd be your Granda. I hate all this underachieved shit. People go on about it with Derry in the 90s. Bollocks. It's there for you to win if you want it enough and if you're good enough. Neither Armagh nor Derry were good enough to do it twice.

Can't see Tyrone being good enough in the near future to do it 4 times either!!

+1

Though I'd say had the Derry team of the 90s had a back door route available this might be a different conversation.

The fact is, Armagh had a sprinking of top players in Marsden, McConville, McDonald, McGeeney....but their real threat was in their new defensive strategy and, shall we say "robustness" of their approach to the game which made them as successful as they were. It was a clever approach to make up for the lack of top quality players by developing physically imposing team with a set of tactics that got them results.
The downside for them was that outside of Ulster this wasn't as effective. Wide open pitches like Croke park left them a little more exposed and made it more difficult for them to impose their game on the opposition. No-one in Ulster at that point had really come to terms with the blanket which also goes some way towards understanding why they were successful in Ulster but not as successful on the national front.

In short, McNulty talking sh*te.

Derry could easily not have won in 1993. Scraped by Dublin and had some decisions/ incidents go their way big time in the final if I remember correctly.

The VAST majority of the greatest footballers to ever play the game never won an AI medal.

I don't doubt it for a second. But you could make that same argument for any team that wins an all-ireland any year. Generally speaking though, the best team wins. The fact is that Dublin team didnt win an All-Ireland until 1995 and then didnt win another one for 13 years (I think) suggests they weren't really good enough in '93. Had some decisions/incidents gone Derry's way in the '94 game against Down, we could perhaps have had 2 in a row as Down pretty much took the title in '94 without being pushed as hard as that first game against us. But again, ifs and buts.

[mackers]

+1

Though I'd say had the Derry team of the 90s had a back door route available this might be a different conversation.

The fact is, Armagh had a sprinking of top players in Marsden, McConville, McDonald, McGeeney....but their real threat was in their new defensive strategy and, shall we say "robustness" of their approach to the game which made them as successful as they were. It was a clever approach to make up for the lack of top quality players by developing physically imposing team with a set of tactics that got them results.
The downside for them was that outside of Ulster this wasn't as effective. Wide open pitches like Croke park left them a little more exposed and made it more difficult for them to impose their game on the opposition. No-one in Ulster at that point had really come to terms with the blanket which also goes some way towards understanding why they were successful in Ulster but not as successful on the national front.

In short, McNulty talking sh*te.

In short you're talking sh1te........as per recently opened thread you are talking dung about "the wide open spaces" of CP and the fact that you can't spell the name of one of the greatest forwards of our game in modern times says it all really. The fact that Armagh had an excellent record in CP is also overlooked in your brilliant theory.  The other big hole in your argument is that it was Ulster teams that put that Armagh team out of the AI in the years 03-05, Tyrone in 2003 and in 2005 and Fermanagh in 2004.

[tbrick18]

+1

Though I'd say had the Derry team of the 90s had a back door route available this might be a different conversation.

The fact is, Armagh had a sprinking of top players in Marsden, McConville, McDonald, McGeeney....but their real threat was in their new defensive strategy and, shall we say "robustness" of their approach to the game which made them as successful as they were. It was a clever approach to make up for the lack of top quality players by developing physically imposing team with a set of tactics that got them results.
The downside for them was that outside of Ulster this wasn't as effective. Wide open pitches like Croke park left them a little more exposed and made it more difficult for them to impose their game on the opposition. No-one in Ulster at that point had really come to terms with the blanket which also goes some way towards understanding why they were successful in Ulster but not as successful on the national front.

In short, McNulty talking sh*te.

In short you're talking sh1te........as per recently opened thread you are talking dung about "the wide open spaces" of CP and the fact that you can't spell the name of one of the greatest forwards of our game in modern times says it all really. Also, that Armagh team had an excellent record in CP is also overlooked in your brilliant theory.  The other big hole in your argument is that it was Ulster teams that put that Armagh team out of the AI in the years 03-05, Tyrone in 2003 and in 2005 and Fermanagh in 2004.

I've been known to talk sh1te from time to time....but criticism of spelling mistakes? Come on....
Did Armagh not win more Ulster titles than Tyrone during the 00's?
Between the years of 2000 - 2010 Armagh won 6 Ulsters (also won in 99), whereas Tyrone won 5.
Tyrone won 3 AI titles and Armagh won 1.

So please explain, if I'm so far off the mark, why Armagh did so well in Ulster but failed to translate that to the national stage?
My opinion is that their gameplan and the tighter pitches alongside a sprinkling of top players was enough for them in Ulster but not at AI level.
Whereas Tyrone (and God knows I'm no fan of Tyrone), performed at both provincial and AI level. So, either they just had better players OR their style of play was more successful on the wide open expanse of CP OR a combination of both.

I'm happy to consider other reasons, but  you haven't presented anything to consider.

[illdecide]

+1

Though I'd say had the Derry team of the 90s had a back door route available this might be a different conversation.

The fact is, Armagh had a sprinking of top players in Marsden, McConville, McDonald, McGeeney....but their real threat was in their new defensive strategy and, shall we say "robustness" of their approach to the game which made them as successful as they were. It was a clever approach to make up for the lack of top quality players by developing physically imposing team with a set of tactics that got them results.
The downside for them was that outside of Ulster this wasn't as effective. Wide open pitches like Croke park left them a little more exposed and made it more difficult for them to impose their game on the opposition. No-one in Ulster at that point had really come to terms with the blanket which also goes some way towards understanding why they were successful in Ulster but not as successful on the national front.

In short, McNulty talking sh*te.

In short you're talking sh1te........as per recently opened thread you are talking dung about "the wide open spaces" of CP and the fact that you can't spell the name of one of the greatest forwards of our game in modern times says it all really. Also, that Armagh team had an excellent record in CP is also overlooked in your brilliant theory.  The other big hole in your argument is that it was Ulster teams that put that Armagh team out of the AI in the years 03-05, Tyrone in 2003 and in 2005 and Fermanagh in 2004.

I've been known to talk sh1te from time to time....but criticism of spelling mistakes? Come on....
Did Armagh not win more Ulster titles than Tyrone during the 00's?
Between the years of 2000 - 2010 Armagh won 6 Ulsters (also won in 99), whereas Tyrone won 5.
Tyrone won 3 AI titles and Armagh won 1.

So please explain, if I'm so far off the mark, why Armagh did so well in Ulster but failed to translate that to the national stage?
My opinion is that their gameplan and the tighter pitches alongside a sprinkling of top players was enough for them in Ulster but not at AI level.
Whereas Tyrone (and God knows I'm no fan of Tyrone), performed at both provincial and AI level. So, either they just had better players OR their style of play was more successful on the wide open expanse of CP OR a combination of both.

I'm happy to consider other reasons, but  you haven't presented anything to consider.

What tighter pitches?

[NaomhBridAbú]

Armagh Could have had 4 in a row.Catastrophic refereeing decisions favouring Tyrone in 03 and 05 cost us dearly but the defeat to Fermanagh in 04 was simply inexcusable.

Now Tony....Tyrone in 03 (Marsden and Jordan....only incident of any real contention) maybe but in 05 Tyrone were, by far the best team in ireland and if anything were short changed in games v armagh!

[imtommygunn]

Armagh Could have had 4 in a row.Catastrophic refereeing decisions favouring Tyrone in 03 and 05 cost us dearly but the defeat to Fermanagh in 04 was simply inexcusable.

Now Tony....Tyrone in 03 (Marsden and Jordan....only incident of any real contention) maybe but in 05 Tyrone were, by far the best team in ireland and if anything were short changed in games v armagh!

I would disagree. Never at any point in that 03 final did I feel that Tyrone were going to lose that match.

05 was different. No guarantees that Armagh would have won the final in 05 though. 05 really could have went either way in the semi but on 03 tyrone were just a better team.

[mackers]

+1

Though I'd say had the Derry team of the 90s had a back door route available this might be a different conversation.

The fact is, Armagh had a sprinking of top players in Marsden, McConville, McDonald, McGeeney....but their real threat was in their new defensive strategy and, shall we say "robustness" of their approach to the game which made them as successful as they were. It was a clever approach to make up for the lack of top quality players by developing physically imposing team with a set of tactics that got them results.
The downside for them was that outside of Ulster this wasn't as effective. Wide open pitches like Croke park left them a little more exposed and made it more difficult for them to impose their game on the opposition. No-one in Ulster at that point had really come to terms with the blanket which also goes some way towards understanding why they were successful in Ulster but not as successful on the national front.

In short, McNulty talking sh*te.

In short you're talking sh1te........as per recently opened thread you are talking dung about "the wide open spaces" of CP and the fact that you can't spell the name of one of the greatest forwards of our game in modern times says it all really. Also, that Armagh team had an excellent record in CP is also overlooked in your brilliant theory.  The other big hole in your argument is that it was Ulster teams that put that Armagh team out of the AI in the years 03-05, Tyrone in 2003 and in 2005 and Fermanagh in 2004.

I've been known to talk sh1te from time to time....but criticism of spelling mistakes? Come on....
Did Armagh not win more Ulster titles than Tyrone during the 00's?
Between the years of 2000 - 2010 Armagh won 6 Ulsters (also won in 99), whereas Tyrone won 5.
Tyrone won 3 AI titles and Armagh won 1.

So please explain, if I'm so far off the mark, why Armagh did so well in Ulster but failed to translate that to the national stage?
My opinion is that their gameplan and the tighter pitches alongside a sprinkling of top players was enough for them in Ulster but not at AI level.
Whereas Tyrone (and God knows I'm no fan of Tyrone), performed at both provincial and AI level. So, either they just had better players OR their style of play was more successful on the wide open expanse of CP OR a combination of both.

I'm happy to consider other reasons, but  you haven't presented anything to consider.

The simple answer is.....I don't know.  On the spelling thing.....I don't normally pass remarks on these things but as I was reading your big theory on how Armagh could win Ulster titles against Ulster teams but couldn't win AI titles against non-Ulster teams (even though they were from Ulster) and telling us that Enda McNulty (a man that is employed by a very successful Irish rugby setup and Brian O'Driscoll swears by) was talking sh!te, I felt the need to start nitpicking!! 
There was a kick of the ball between Armagh and Tyrone in those years, both teams were as good as the other. Tyrone came out the right side of the real big games in 2003 and 2005 (it pains me to say it).  Managerial decisions didn't help, Joe Kernan changed the setup of the Armagh team in the 2003 final to counteract Tyrone's strengths and it backfired.  The withdrawal of Geezer in the 05 semi was a huge factor also.

[nrico2006]

On the pitch argument, how is it that in Ulster games that are held at Clones for example, there would appear to be less space opening up for teams than you seem to see when teams play in Croke Park?

As for the McGeeney substitution, he was on the pitch in the two Ulster final games and he wasn't the deciding factor (the referee was).

[NaomhBridAbú]

Armagh Could have had 4 in a row.Catastrophic refereeing decisions favouring Tyrone in 03 and 05 cost us dearly but the defeat to Fermanagh in 04 was simply inexcusable.

Now Tony....Tyrone in 03 (Marsden and Jordan....only incident of any real contention) maybe but in 05 Tyrone were, by far the best team in ireland and if anything were short changed in games v armagh!

its funny that I have always viewed the 05 run as Tyrone playing better football?
I think mcNulty has a point that Armagh "maybe should" have won more...certainly Kernan taking of McGeeney in 05 was an error which lead to Sean Cavanagh having a field day....so maybe if there had been more tactical awareness and astuteness from Big Joe...who knows...if your aunt had balls and all that....
Great to be chatting about Tyrone and their 3 all irelands....it might be a while before we're talking about the 4th

I would disagree. Never at any point in that 03 final did I feel that Tyrone were going to lose that match.

05 was different. No guarantees that Armagh would have won the final in 05 though. 05 really could have went either way in the semi but on 03 tyrone were just a better team.

[NaomhBridAbú]

+1

Though I'd say had the Derry team of the 90s had a back door route available this might be a different conversation.

The fact is, Armagh had a sprinking of top players in Marsden, McConville, McDonald, McGeeney....but their real threat was in their new defensive strategy and, shall we say "robustness" of their approach to the game which made them as successful as they were. It was a clever approach to make up for the lack of top quality players by developing physically imposing team with a set of tactics that got them results.
The downside for them was that outside of Ulster this wasn't as effective. Wide open pitches like Croke park left them a little more exposed and made it more difficult for them to impose their game on the opposition. No-one in Ulster at that point had really come to terms with the blanket which also goes some way towards understanding why they were successful in Ulster but not as successful on the national front.

In short, McNulty talking sh*te.

In short you're talking sh1te........as per recently opened thread you are talking dung about "the wide open spaces" of CP and the fact that you can't spell the name of one of the greatest forwards of our game in modern times says it all really. Also, that Armagh team had an excellent record in CP is also overlooked in your brilliant theory.  The other big hole in your argument is that it was Ulster teams that put that Armagh team out of the AI in the years 03-05, Tyrone in 2003 and in 2005 and Fermanagh in 2004.

I've been known to talk sh1te from time to time....but criticism of spelling mistakes? Come on....
Did Armagh not win more Ulster titles than Tyrone during the 00's?
Between the years of 2000 - 2010 Armagh won 6 Ulsters (also won in 99), whereas Tyrone won 5.
Tyrone won 3 AI titles and Armagh won 1.

So please explain, if I'm so far off the mark, why Armagh did so well in Ulster but failed to translate that to the national stage?
My opinion is that their gameplan and the tighter pitches alongside a sprinkling of top players was enough for them in Ulster but not at AI level.
Whereas Tyrone (and God knows I'm no fan of Tyrone), performed at both provincial and AI level. So, either they just had better players OR their style of play was more successful on the wide open expanse of CP OR a combination of both.

I'm happy to consider other reasons, but  you haven't presented anything to consider.

The simple answer is.....I don't know.  On the spelling thing.....I don't normally pass remarks on these things but as I was reading your big theory on how Armagh could win Ulster titles against Ulster teams but couldn't win AI titles against non-Ulster teams (even though they were from Ulster) and telling us that Enda McNulty (a man that is employed by a very successful Irish rugby setup and Brian O'Driscoll swears by) was talking sh!te, I felt the need to start nitpicking!! 
There was a kick of the ball between Armagh and Tyrone in those years, both teams were as good as the other. Tyrone came out the right side of the real big games in 2003 and 2005 (it pains me to say it).  Managerial decisions didn't help, Joe Kernan changed the setup of the Armagh team in the 2003 final to counteract Tyrone's strengths and it backfired.  The withdrawal of Geezer in the 05 semi was a huge factor also.

+1

[mackers]

On the pitch argument, how is it that in Ulster games that are held at Clones for example, there would appear to be less space opening up for teams than you seem to see when teams play in Croke Park?

As for the McGeeney substitution, he was on the pitch in the two Ulster final games and he wasn't the deciding factor (the referee was).

Complete red herring.  Sean Cavanagh has said in a number of interviews since the 05 semi that he couldn't believe his luck when Geezer was taken off. He was able to get straight up the middle of Armagh's defence in the closing minutes to telling effect.  I'd take his opinion over yours every day of the week.

[mackers]

Armagh Could have had 4 in a row.Catastrophic refereeing decisions favouring Tyrone in 03 and 05 cost us dearly but the defeat to Fermanagh in 04 was simply inexcusable.

Now Tony....Tyrone in 03 (Marsden and Jordan....only incident of any real contention) maybe but in 05 Tyrone were, by far the best team in ireland and if anything were short changed in games v armagh!

its funny that I have always viewed the 05 run as Tyrone playing better football?
I think mcNulty has a point that Armagh "maybe should" have won more...certainly Kernan taking of McGeeney in 05 was an error which lead to Sean Cavanagh having a field day....so maybe if there had been more tactical awareness and astuteness from Big Joe...who knows...if your aunt had balls and all that....
Great to be chatting about Tyrone and their 3 all irelands....it might be a while before we're talking about the 4th

I would disagree. Never at any point in that 03 final did I feel that Tyrone were going to lose that match.

05 was different. No guarantees that Armagh would have won the final in 05 though. 05 really could have went either way in the semi but on 03 tyrone were just a better team.

The Armagh team in 2005 was a much better team than the one in 03.  The introduction of Andy Mallon, Ciaran McKeever and Aaron Kernan left us with a much more talented back line that we had in 2003.  It allowed Armagh to address the lack of mobility that Fermanagh exposed in 2004.  2005 also saw Tyrone at the peak of their powers though.....sod's law.

[mackers]

+1

Though I'd say had the Derry team of the 90s had a back door route available this might be a different conversation.

The fact is, Armagh had a sprinking of top players in Marsden, McConville, McDonald, McGeeney....but their real threat was in their new defensive strategy and, shall we say "robustness" of their approach to the game which made them as successful as they were. It was a clever approach to make up for the lack of top quality players by developing physically imposing team with a set of tactics that got them results.
The downside for them was that outside of Ulster this wasn't as effective. Wide open pitches like Croke park left them a little more exposed and made it more difficult for them to impose their game on the opposition. No-one in Ulster at that point had really come to terms with the blanket which also goes some way towards understanding why they were successful in Ulster but not as successful on the national front.

In short, McNulty talking sh*te.

In short you're talking sh1te........as per recently opened thread you are talking dung about "the wide open spaces" of CP and the fact that you can't spell the name of one of the greatest forwards of our game in modern times says it all really. Also, that Armagh team had an excellent record in CP is also overlooked in your brilliant theory.  The other big hole in your argument is that it was Ulster teams that put that Armagh team out of the AI in the years 03-05, Tyrone in 2003 and in 2005 and Fermanagh in 2004.

I've been known to talk sh1te from time to time....but criticism of spelling mistakes? Come on....
Did Armagh not win more Ulster titles than Tyrone during the 00's?
Between the years of 2000 - 2010 Armagh won 6 Ulsters (also won in 99), whereas Tyrone won 5.
Tyrone won 3 AI titles and Armagh won 1.

So please explain, if I'm so far off the mark, why Armagh did so well in Ulster but failed to translate that to the national stage?
My opinion is that their gameplan and the tighter pitches alongside a sprinkling of top players was enough for them in Ulster but not at AI level.
Whereas Tyrone (and God knows I'm no fan of Tyrone), performed at both provincial and AI level. So, either they just had better players OR their style of play was more successful on the wide open expanse of CP OR a combination of both.

I'm happy to consider other reasons, but  you haven't presented anything to consider.

What tighter pitches?

+1
Armagh's record in Croke Park from 2002 to 2006 was won 11, drew 2, lost 4.  The man hasn't done his homework!

[BennyHarp]

It is a bit strange when Armagh blame a decision by their own manager for losing the 2005 semi final. The manager is a key part of the whole team and if he shits the bed when the white heat is on then it points to a key aspect of the team being not up to it at the very highest level. I.e. Utimately, as a team and management they weren't up to winning multiple All Irelands. In my opinion, theTyrone team in 2005 would have found a way of winning that game had 3 McGeeney's been on the pitch.

[armaghniac]

In my opinion, theTyrone team in 2005 would have found a way of winning that game had 3 McGeeney's been on the pitch.

Not only McNulty talking bollix.