The developing UK constitutional crisis and the status of Northern Ireland

[Mike Sheehy]

Brit gov will halve their bill on the six counties and give a lot of it to is to take the six counties back.

This precedent is common - eg Germany and Japan after ww2 both received huge funding from USA , Brits and allies

Germany and japan were major economic powers before the war so there was a vested interest in
all parties in seeing them get back on their feet.

NI is not a defeated world power.

Personally I think a united Ireland is inevitable. It is only a matter of time...but I see it in the same way
as moss growing over a fallen tree, the timeframes are very long. Multiple generations at least.
True patriots are patient.

One thing that will not help is unionist baiting which is something I see a lot these days (Seafoid is a **** for this).

I take the colours of our flag at their word.

... The six counties are the opposite of an economic super power- they are an economic super drain!
The point is that other countries will pay to have us take the six counties back - Brits and possibly the eu and USA - depending on how broke they are!

The six counties will be foisted back onto us whenever the British gov needs to get rid of them- it won't be decades!
We have to ensure we get the best economic deal for is to take them.
Better getting Michael oleary to do the negotiations not inda kinny !!

You and I will be long dead when a United Ireland comes into being. I am at peace with that. I know it will happen so I don't expend too much energy on the how and where.

Stop talking about "economic" deals. That is  simplistic, near term  "seafoid-speak". If economic interests were the only thing at stake NI nationalists would have given up on a United Ireland long time ago.

The real question, the hard question for any nationalist,  is what is your vision for a United Ireland and where do Unionists fit in with that vision.

"f**k them, they deserve what they get" is not the right answer.

[lynchbhoy]

Brit gov will halve their bill on the six counties and give a lot of it to is to take the six counties back.

This precedent is common - eg Germany and Japan after ww2 both received huge funding from USA , Brits and allies

Germany and japan were major economic powers before the war so there was a vested interest in
all parties in seeing them get back on their feet.

NI is not a defeated world power.

Personally I think a united Ireland is inevitable. It is only a matter of time...but I see it in the same way
as moss growing over a fallen tree, the timeframes are very long. Multiple generations at least.
True patriots are patient.

One thing that will not help is unionist baiting which is something I see a lot these days (Seafoid is a **** for this).

I take the colours of our flag at their word.

... The six counties are the opposite of an economic super power- they are an economic super drain!
The point is that other countries will pay to have us take the six counties back - Brits and possibly the eu and USA - depending on how broke they are!

The six counties will be foisted back onto us whenever the British gov needs to get rid of them- it won't be decades!
We have to ensure we get the best economic deal for is to take them.
Better getting Michael oleary to do the negotiations not inda kinny !!

You and I will be long dead when a United Ireland comes into being. I am at peace with that. I know it will happen so I don't expend too much energy on the how and where.

Stop talking about "economic" deals. That is  simplistic, near term  "seafoid-speak". If economic interests were the only thing at stake NI nationalists would have given up on a United Ireland long time ago.

The real question, the hard question for any nationalist,  is what is your vision for a United Ireland and where do Unionists fit in with that vision.

"f**k them, they deserve what they get" is not the right answer.

Quite obv you don't like talking about it but The economic aspect is key to the whole thing !!
Each side of the border will need a financial carrot to make the jump!

I don't know how long you will live or the state of your health, but no one will know as to when the reunification will occur- long or short term !!

It's not about feck unionists, they will be treated the same as nationalists , it will be irish citizenship , Irish culture and I'd expect cultural rallies in specific days. I'd also expect the banning of marches for each side etc

Basic realistic stuff !

[Mike Sheehy]

Brit gov will halve their bill on the six counties and give a lot of it to is to take the six counties back.

This precedent is common - eg Germany and Japan after ww2 both received huge funding from USA , Brits and allies

Germany and japan were major economic powers before the war so there was a vested interest in
all parties in seeing them get back on their feet.

NI is not a defeated world power.

Personally I think a united Ireland is inevitable. It is only a matter of time...but I see it in the same way
as moss growing over a fallen tree, the timeframes are very long. Multiple generations at least.
True patriots are patient.

One thing that will not help is unionist baiting which is something I see a lot these days (Seafoid is a **** for this).

I take the colours of our flag at their word.

... The six counties are the opposite of an economic super power- they are an economic super drain!
The point is that other countries will pay to have us take the six counties back - Brits and possibly the eu and USA - depending on how broke they are!

The six counties will be foisted back onto us whenever the British gov needs to get rid of them- it won't be decades!
We have to ensure we get the best economic deal for is to take them.
Better getting Michael oleary to do the negotiations not inda kinny !!

You and I will be long dead when a United Ireland comes into being. I am at peace with that. I know it will happen so I don't expend too much energy on the how and where.

Stop talking about "economic" deals. That is  simplistic, near term  "seafoid-speak". If economic interests were the only thing at stake NI nationalists would have given up on a United Ireland long time ago.

The real question, the hard question for any nationalist,  is what is your vision for a United Ireland and where do Unionists fit in with that vision.

"f**k them, they deserve what they get" is not the right answer.

Quite obv you don't like talking about it but The economic aspect is key to the whole thing !!
Each side of the border will need a financial carrot to make the jump!

I don't know how long you will live or the state of your health, but no one will know as to when the reunification will occur- long or short term !!

It's not about feck unionists, they will be treated the same as nationalists , it will be irish citizenship , Irish culture and I'd expect cultural rallies in specific days. I'd also expect the banning of marches for each side etc

Basic realistic stuff !

I am perfectly happy to discuss the economic aspect.

How long will the "carrot" last and how do you think the republic will deal with the aftermath ?

[Mike Sheehy]

I think one of the greatest questions facing Irish people is how we will deal with the Unionist population
in a united Ireland. How do you see Ireland 100 years from now or even 200 years from now ?

I think the way we address this today could save much bloodshed in the decades, or even centuries, to come

[JPGJOHNNYG]

Did someone seriously mention repartition? It is simply a non-starter, the obvious problem being what do you do with the thousands of nationalists in Belfast. If Belfast is included in any rump state then there would still be a nationalist population of around 30%!

[Applesisapples]

Did someone seriously mention repartition? It is simply a non-starter, the obvious problem being what do you do with the thousands of nationalists in Belfast. If Belfast is included in any rump state then there would still be a nationalist population of around 30%!

Repartition is a non starter. It is unlikely that Nationalist in the North would abandon their fellow Irishmen in that way, given how we feel about 1922. It is so heart-warming to see our fellow Irishmen from the south discuss the circumstances in which they would take us back, this Island and the Irish nation is greater than 26 counties.

[theskull1]

Worked out that the UK national debt amounts to £22000 per head of population. It was £14000 per head 5 years ago. We are becoming more and more enslaved by capitalism. Will it really matter what country you're enslaved in in 50 or 100 years time?

[Rossfan]

I think one of the greatest questions facing Irish people is how we will deal with the Unionist population
in a united Ireland. How do you see Ireland 100 years from now or even 200 years from now ?

I think the way we address this today could save much bloodshed in the decades, or even centuries, to come

I suppose I should be worried agreeing with Sheehy on anything but the above is spot on.
Saying there will only be "Irish culture and citizenship" is not going to make lukewarm or moderate unionists feel welcome in our new Ireland.
I'd see a Confederation of 2 Semi autonomous areas ( present 6 and 26 Cos), possible cantonisation of the 6 Cos under that - "South and West"  mainly Nationalist, "North and East" - mainly Unionist annd "Belfast" about 50/50).
People in the 6 Cos would be entitled to British Citizenship if they so desired - up to the Brits to decide if that would be automatic or have to be claimed.
Again it would help if the Nationalist Parties in the North had a few lines even in their policies as to what sort of arrangements they'd see in the future All Ireland State. Of course our wonderful 26 Cos pro U I parties should have something too .... but I'm losing the run of myself now.

[lynchbhoy]

Brit gov will halve their bill on the six counties and give a lot of it to is to take the six counties back.

This precedent is common - eg Germany and Japan after ww2 both received huge funding from USA , Brits and allies

Germany and japan were major economic powers before the war so there was a vested interest in
all parties in seeing them get back on their feet.

NI is not a defeated world power.

Personally I think a united Ireland is inevitable. It is only a matter of time...but I see it in the same way
as moss growing over a fallen tree, the timeframes are very long. Multiple generations at least.
True patriots are patient.

One thing that will not help is unionist baiting which is something I see a lot these days (Seafoid is a **** for this).

I take the colours of our flag at their word.

... The six counties are the opposite of an economic super power- they are an economic super drain!
The point is that other countries will pay to have us take the six counties back - Brits and possibly the eu and USA - depending on how broke they are!

The six counties will be foisted back onto us whenever the British gov needs to get rid of them- it won't be decades!
We have to ensure we get the best economic deal for is to take them.
Better getting Michael oleary to do the negotiations not inda kinny !!

You and I will be long dead when a United Ireland comes into being. I am at peace with that. I know it will happen so I don't expend too much energy on the how and where.

Stop talking about "economic" deals. That is  simplistic, near term  "seafoid-speak". If economic interests were the only thing at stake NI nationalists would have given up on a United Ireland long time ago.

The real question, the hard question for any nationalist,  is what is your vision for a United Ireland and where do Unionists fit in with that vision.

"f**k them, they deserve what they get" is not the right answer.

Quite obv you don't like talking about it but The economic aspect is key to the whole thing !!
Each side of the border will need a financial carrot to make the jump!

I don't know how long you will live or the state of your health, but no one will know as to when the reunification will occur- long or short term !!

It's not about feck unionists, they will be treated the same as nationalists , it will be irish citizenship , Irish culture and I'd expect cultural rallies in specific days. I'd also expect the banning of marches for each side etc

Basic realistic stuff !

I am perfectly happy to discuss the economic aspect.

How long will the "carrot" last and how do you think the republic will deal with the aftermath ?

as long as our politicians can negotiate it for!

the southern contingent have to be happy with this also - and there will be a referendum south of the border.

there has to be a carrot for both sides and it will be financial. reunification alone will not suffice!

[lynchbhoy]

I think one of the greatest questions facing Irish people is how we will deal with the Unionist population
in a united Ireland. How do you see Ireland 100 years from now or even 200 years from now ?

I think the way we address this today could save much bloodshed in the decades, or even centuries, to come

why do you think there will be bloodshed - what is your info on this happening?

[T Fearon]

I repeat again Unionists will not accept a UI under any circumstances and given past history the UK and Irish Govt will cave in to the threat of widespread violence and probably reach a compromised re partition.

Anyone who thinks any differently neither knows nor understands unionists.

[johnneycool]

I repeat again Unionists will not accept a UI under any circumstances and given past history the UK and Irish Govt will cave in to the threat of widespread violence and probably reach a compromised re partition.

Anyone who thinks any differently neither knows nor understands unionists.

But surely they're democrats Tone and will honour the democratic wish of the majority, no?

[imtommygunn]

I would agree here. There would be blood. How bad it would be who knows but there are a lot of knuckle draggers there who would cause a lot of problems.

We are a long long way off. To read here you'd think it will happen in the foreseeable future.

[T Fearon]

They will not respect a vote and will justify their violent threats  by referencing the IRA campaign which in their view the provos never accepted democracy.

[LCohen]

fair play to Benzars for introducing some perspective into this discussion and the more sensible direction of the subsequent posts.

The has been a tendency to massively over simplify matters.
1) A majority say they are from a nationslist or cathoilc background means that there would be a yes vore in the north
2) If the north voted yes that the south would also vote yes
3) Unionists are one homogenous group and all are equally hard line
4) Loyalist violence can be discounted because it will never muster the strength to prevent or reverse an unification of ireland.

All 4 simplifications are fallacies.
A significant number of assumed nationalists would not vite for a united ireland. Econimic considerations will play a big part in this and the celtic tiger and subsequent collapse are the headline grabbers but the underlying trend is the real issue.

The economic factors would be huge in the southern vote. Even if RoI burns off its debt problems and even if there was a partial erosion of UK health, education, welfare provision etc, etc the longer term view has to be taken into consideration. NI will only vote Yes if the swaying voter is assured on these points. A yes vote in the south then becomes a vote on honouring those undertakings. Who in the south would vote to enshrine a constitutional commitment to pay the taxes to support services in one part of the isalnd whilst not benefiting from them themselves. Have yet to read anybody in the embryonic yes camp explain how this would work

There are natioalists who have and do peaceably engage with the UK state and the local economy, who reject violence including the attempt through violence of realising their polictal view and there are nationalist who do walk the streets insisting on visual testimonies of their national identity. All the same things can be said of unionism. Across the north there are fluctuations in the degree of fervour of the strand of unionism.nationalism that will dominate the local.

Republicanism never mustered the military might to achieve a united ireland but it wreaked havoc and created misery all the same. Some version of loyalism will no doubt attempt the same and enjoy some partial "success"

There is a lack of leadership in unioinism today. I suspect if a united ireland was looming (and I think it certainly many decades away and who knows maybe centuries) that sufficinet leadership woul emerge to start to set the scene of unification. A new constitutional flux around cultural recognition, right to british passports, UK involvement in some issues etc, etc would be laid down.

The key is not the line on the map. The key is how many lives are lost or ruined and how much distrust and abnormality exists before, during and after the constitutional manoeuvre