New BBC documentary asks ‘Who Won the War in North?’

[Maguire01]

I can't help but think that many of the contributors on here must be only in their 20's. As a child of the 60's I grew up in a time when to express any sort of irishness outside of your own community was strictly not allowed. If you were lucky enough to be employed as a minority of catholics were you were viewed with suspicion. You worked in an environment where pictures of Royalty and union jack bunting was standard. I do not support violence but even I must reluctantly accept that the advances in equality wouldn't have happened without the troubles. As to who one? well just look at how easily catholic/nationalists in their 20's have accepted the legitimacy of the Northern State...says it all.

Yes there was terrible discrimination, but claims such as the above just discredit the argument. As per the 1971 census: "Protestant male unemployment was 6.6% compared to 17.3% for Catholic males, while the equivalent rates for women were 3.6% and 7% respectively." So yes, an unjustifiable gap, but far from a "minority" of Catholics in employment.

[foxcommander]

How do you know how effective a civil rights movement, peaceful protest or civil disobedience might have been over 25 years? We'd probably have a lot less than 3,000 plus deaths and many multiples of that injured.

And even if you support the approach of shooting and bombing people, and if you somehow believe that it was all for equality and not nationalism, and if you then think that it achieved its objectives, you then have to ask yourself, was the outcome worth the death of 3,000 plus people? Was it a price worth paying?

No lives are worth losing. that's a stupid question.

It's not a stupid question. A difficult one maybe, for someone who supported that approach. If no lives are worth losing, then you can't justify a violent approach.

The civil rights movement didn't get off to a great start now did it? so you think that people would have gotten back on the streets to peacefully protest week in, week out for their rights if they thought they would lose their lives doing so?

The irish government weren't doing much of a job in helping them. They might give the PM a cross look next time they saw them but that was about it.

if you don't fight your corner you won't get anything. How often do people in a position of ultimate power yield something if there is no reason to? Could you see the unionists being reasonable? Never never never.

Get off your unicorn Rainbow Brite and come into the real world.

As i've responded to another post, the 'one man, one vote' was agreed in 1969, the Housing Executive was established in 1971. Some progress was being made and it was clear the status quo couldn't continue.

I totally agree about "fighting your corner". I don't agree that you do that with bombs and bullets.

It may be clear that the status quo couldn't continue but there were those in power who were doing their best to ensure it did. If you don't think that the physical approach accelerated the issues i'm afraid you're in dreamland. The peaceful approach may have got there at some point too but who's to say it would even be resolved now. You only have to look at the likes of Gaza to see what one side can do to another if they have the means and the backing of a powerful government.

and to repeat, no life is worth losing but sometimes it happens. Thankfully people like yourself won't be entrusted with ensuring my rights as a citizen if it came down to it.

[Applesisapples]

I can't help but think that many of the contributors on here must be only in their 20's. As a child of the 60's I grew up in a time when to express any sort of irishness outside of your own community was strictly not allowed. If you were lucky enough to be employed as a minority of catholics were you were viewed with suspicion. You worked in an environment where pictures of Royalty and union jack bunting was standard. I do not support violence but even I must reluctantly accept that the advances in equality wouldn't have happened without the troubles. As to who one? well just look at how easily catholic/nationalists in their 20's have accepted the legitimacy of the Northern State...says it all.

Yes there was terrible discrimination, but claims such as the above just discredit the argument. As per the 1971 census: "Protestant male unemployment was 6.6% compared to 17.3% for Catholic males, while the equivalent rates for women were 3.6% and 7% respectively." So yes, an unjustifiable gap, but far from a "minority" of Catholics in employment.

1971 things were starting to ease. In the area in which I grew up all the best land was protestant. Jobs were nonexistent and a majority of men were unemployed. Those who got work were lucky but it was mainly casual labouring in the summer. But discrimination still prevent most catholics from aspiring to any sort of career. All senior positions in the state were reserved for Protestants.
my comments regarding the working environment stand. When I started my first job in 1979, it was in such an environment. My line manager even thought it was funny to ask me if when I went to confession did I tell the priest that I enjoyed pulling myself off. Statistics damn lies and statistics. Many of todays DUP and UUP not to even mention the TUV hark back to those good old days.

[Hereiam]

I you take an overall look at it today

• Big landowners are still protestant
• Protestants would still own a lot of the wealth in the north
• The majority of Catholics aged 30-40 have been left with large student loans

Nothing is going to change anytime soon.

[johnneycool]

I you take an overall look at it today

• Big landowners are still protestant
• Protestants would still own a lot of the wealth in the north
• The majority of Catholics aged 30-40 have been left with large student loans

Nothing is going to change anytime soon.

There's very much a slide the other way where I'm from, some historically Protestant owned and farmed land has moved into Catholic hands, the spuds taste the same though.

I'd say if the details were available high ranking Civil servants, cops and private business owners are very much weighted towards the protestant faiths and change will be slow there too.

[Tony Baloney]

I you take an overall look at it today

• Big landowners are still protestant

[/b]

• Protestants would still own a lot of the wealth in the north
• The majority of Catholics aged 30-40 have been left with large student loans

Nothing is going to change anytime soon.

That is never going to change.

The student loans piece to me is an irrelevance as anyone I know paying them off is paying off a very comfortable amount. I have never heard of anyone being crippled by a student loan.

[armaghniac]

I you take an overall look at it today

• Big landowners are still protestant

Farming is no longer the main route to a living.

• The majority of Catholics aged 30-40 have been left with large student loans

Some Protestants have loans too, but these people are in GB. A large proportion of Protestants left school at 16 and went drinking around bonfires. The Catholics have done better, loans or no loans.

Nothing is going to change anytime soon.

Everything is changing, but gradually.

[Hereiam]

Just reading today that the OO has bought a substantial bit of property on Perry street in Dungannon
http://www.dungannon.gov.uk/userfiles/image/Perry%20Street%20(1).JPG

I heard today also that the OO is providing subsidies to young members to go to university so they do realise there is a problem for young uneducated protestants. Interesting times.

[armaghniac]

I heard today also that the OO is providing subsidies to young members to go to university so they do realise there is a problem for young uneducated protestants. Interesting times.

Unfortunately, when you see the likes of McCausland, Dodds and Allister, the educated Protestants don't make much of a positive contribution either.

[Rossfan]

, when you see the likes of McCausland, Dodds and Allister, the educated Protestants don't make much of a positive contribution either.

3 very good arguments for a Catholic Education if ever there was one 

[johnneycool]

Just reading today that the OO has bought a substantial bit of property on Perry street in Dungannon
http://www.dungannon.gov.uk/userfiles/image/Perry%20Street%20(1).JPG

I heard today also that the OO is providing subsidies to young members to go to university so they do realise there is a problem for young uneducated protestants. Interesting times.

Where might the OO get its funding from?

Is there a membership fee?

[imtommygunn]

Do they not get some government funding?

[Myles Na G.]

I you take an overall look at it today

• Big landowners are still protestant
• Protestants would still own a lot of the wealth in the north
• The majority of Catholics aged 30-40 have been left with large student loans

Nothing is going to change anytime soon.

There's very much a slide the other way where I'm from, some historically Protestant owned and farmed land has moved into Catholic hands, the spuds taste the same though.

I'd say if the details were available high ranking Civil servants, cops and private business owners are very much weighted towards the protestant faiths and change will be slow there too.

Plenty of SF and SDLP ministers in government these days, ideally placed to address any employment imbalances in their departments.

[Maguire01]

I you take an overall look at it today

• Big landowners are still protestant
• Protestants would still own a lot of the wealth in the north
• The majority of Catholics aged 30-40 have been left with large student loans

Nothing is going to change anytime soon.

For the first point, farm land tends to pass down through families, so you wouldn't expect much change there. I don't see any big deal either way.

For the second point, I have no idea who owns what wealth. Your perception may be true. Or it may be rubbish. Look at just how much property in the north was controlled by NAMA. Who knows exactly who owns what.

As for student loans, that just reflects a highly educated population. It's a real glass half full approach to spin that as a negative.

[lynchbhoy]

John Hume virtually ignored.

Taylor needs to be reminded about who was the main nationalist force behind the IRA ceasefire

Seamus Mallon was representing the SDLP - maybe he should've emphasised Hume's contribution a bit more. John, unfortunately, isn't able to speak up for himself these days.

Hume and Mallon lead the nationalist charge long before sf came about

Two fantastic men and politicians

But by your logic, they didn't have a clue what they were talking about, given that they totally opposed violence.

You said to me:

if you had actually personal and family experience and knowledge of what had historically gone on for decades prior to gfa - you might and prob see things a whole lot differently.

Well surely these two men had very real personal and family experience? How can they be fantastic men and politicians if they got it so wrong?

No harm to you maguire but if you have to ask those questions - I really depicts that you don't have the foundation of knowledge to question any opinions let alone try to force your own as being correct.

I agree with you though on that Catholics having student loans is actually a good sign.

You don't realise though that while it might not look like a huge disparity in percentage of Catholics to Protestants in gainful employment - there was a huge disparity in the level of employment and associated salary ( indeed casual contract v full time contract etc)