New BBC documentary asks ‘Who Won the War in North?’

[Kidder81]

EU employment rights did more to advance equality than any campaign.

This is an inconvenient truth for some.

[Myles Na G.]

Look at Scotland, 45% voted for independence and no violence. There is a lesson in that for Gerry and his "hard men".

That was democracy at work and it worked well. However, the terms 'democracy' and 'Ireland' don't sit well in the same sentence. In the latter part of the 19th century and the early decades of the 20th, the democratic wishes of the greater number of people on this island were denied, when the demand for Home Rule was refused. Thereafter, the state of Northern Ireland was established and sustained at the point of a gun against the wishes of a majority on the island. If there was a referendum tomorrow for all the people of this island, the chances are a majority would vote in favour of a reunited Ireland outside the union. Would that vote be allowed? Would the result be respected? If force is used to suppress democracy, the likelihood is always that some will see force as a means of re establishing their democratic rights. Personally I think that approach is badly misguided, but I understand how others might arrive at that conclusion.

The argument that NI was formed against the majority of the people of Ireland only works if you consider the entire island to be one nation.  The fact is that the majority of nationalists and the majority of unionists (a similar number of unionists and nationalists were caught on the "wrong" side of the border) were able to exercise self-determination by the partition of Ireland. 

Either way, the argument that all of the people of Ireland should vote in a referendum to determine whether or not the whole of the island should separate from the rest if the UK is defunct thanks to both parts of Ireland ratifying the Good Friday Agreement by referendum.

Perhaps you think that Scotland is comprised of two nations also, given that 45% of the people voted for an independent Scotland outside the union, while 55% opted to remain British? Maybe Glasgow and Dundee should be given federal status, or become self governing cantons? Also, northern unionists were not able to exercise self determination. Their 'country' was carved out for them by the British government and imposed by threat of force. Had they been left to themselves, they would've been unable to hold on to more than 3 counties at best. In all likelihood, they would've had to have reached some sort of negotiated settlement with their fellow citizens of this island. They may have argued for and obtained some sort of northern parliament for themselves, but the wishes of the majority of the island would have been respected and the integrity of Ireland as a country would've been maintained. Also, the GFA has not made the argument defunct. The agreement was ratified by both parts of the island as the best deal available at present, but noone said that it was a full and final settlement.

Not a new argument. Remember getting my eyes opened on OWC a few years ago on the Unionist take on things, something I'd never considered before and their position was entirely understandable.

I can understand why unionists would make the 'two nations' argument, but it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Presumably the Irish are one of the nations, but who is the other? It can't be the British nation, as Britain consists of more than one country. It can't be the 'Northern Irish', at least not according to census data, which shows that only a minority of people from the 6 counties classify themselves in that way. Ulster-British? Ulster-Scots? Irish-British? How can a claim for nationhood be made when the people making the claim aren't sure what nationality they are? Any ideas, Tonto? Genuine question.

Of course it's British. Chris Froome born & raised in Kenya of English parents gave a great description / explanation of how he feels British (to Paul Kimmage). Not English, Welsh, Scotch or Northern Irish but British http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling/paul-kimmage-chris-froome-in-the-eye-of-the-storm-part-1-30391816.html

Significant that his parents are English. For most English I've met, British and English are the same thing - it's just the Scots, the Welsh and the Irish who struggle with the concept. But let's assume you're right and that the two nations on this island are the Irish and the British. How then does that square with Tonto's assertion that partition was an exercise in self determination on the part of unionists? Britain already had self determination, complete with its own parliament, own flag, own anthem, etc etc. The action of unionists, therefore, could not be an act of British self determination, or an assertion of nationhood, as these things had already taken place. It was rather a desire on the part of some British people to retain a particular piece of land under British control, a desire which flew in the face of their own parliament, which had already passed the Home Rule bill. 

[ONeill]

Guerilla warfare is hard to defend against but somehow I think that with all the advances in technology, surveillance and intelligence gathering, any campaign against the Brits militarily wouldn't last very long. Most combatants would be either dead or in jail.

I couldn't see a new game ending up a draw. You'd get big odds on a draw and bigger odds on a defeat for the Brits.

Guerilla warfare cannot exist today.

The IRA got out at the perfect time but without anything to show for the deaths of any of their members in the previous 26 years.

If the Brits ever decide end their interest here, it'll be because of economic reasons - not anything any campaign achieved.

Your opinion is interesting - in the opinion of ex volunteers I know and families of dead volunteers, they are happy that parity and equality have been installed in the 6 counties. There is no longer the same systematic persecution of nationalists or GAA men just because it would send a tyrannical message out to the rest of the parish etc
Our kids and families are free to grow up careless of political or violent oppression.
No longer second class citizens with teaching the top level of achievable career for young nationalists.Main objective achieved. Reunification will happen depending of economics.

I understand that some people will feel that as a form of comfort but it's not really logical thinking in my opinion.

You're underestimating the roles of people like Hume over the last 30 years and the role of our friends on the continent.

In terms of volunteers, maybe I'm wrong but social and economic betterment was far from their thoughts. There was one goal and it was the same one that drove many campaigns right back to the 1500s.

Maybe the older you get you lose the fire but when I think of the many many friends and relations who lost their lives around the ages of 17-23 it's really sad. They went to their grave and their last thought was striking a blow for old Ireland and removing British rule.

The question is...did they? Was it all worth it? You need to remove sentiment from the decision.

[bennydorano]

100% correct. They acted illegally, although I'd doubt that would be their take on it. There are hundreds of history books explaining their motivations.

[lynchbhoy]

Guerilla warfare is hard to defend against but somehow I think that with all the advances in technology, surveillance and intelligence gathering, any campaign against the Brits militarily wouldn't last very long. Most combatants would be either dead or in jail.

I couldn't see a new game ending up a draw. You'd get big odds on a draw and bigger odds on a defeat for the Brits.

Guerilla warfare cannot exist today.

The IRA got out at the perfect time but without anything to show for the deaths of any of their members in the previous 26 years.

If the Brits ever decide end their interest here, it'll be because of economic reasons - not anything any campaign achieved.

Your opinion is interesting - in the opinion of ex volunteers I know and families of dead volunteers, they are happy that parity and equality have been installed in the 6 counties. There is no longer the same systematic persecution of nationalists or GAA men just because it would send a tyrannical message out to the rest of the parish etc
Our kids and families are free to grow up careless of political or violent oppression.
No longer second class citizens with teaching the top level of achievable career for young nationalists.Main objective achieved. Reunification will happen depending of economics.

Some will say that indeed - and many of them will believe it. Others will say it rather than admit the futility of what happened here. Others again will say that it was a waste of time and failed to achieve the primary objective.

And as I have said before, it's a pretty big assumption to say that without the "war" nationalists would still be the second class citizens they were in the 1960s. It assumes that the world otherwise stands still. The world became a very different place in those 30 years - attitudes to racism, homosexuality, unmarried mothers, the position of the Church etc. - yet there's this assumption that without violence, Catholics would have remained second class citizens, that NI could have continued to exist as it did. It also totally ignores changing demographics, the demise of the traditional employment for the Protestant population, the education of the Catholic population...

With decades of previous treatment metres out to nationalists ( could count hundreds of years) it was not on any horizon to change in the ruling establishment/loyalist/unionist mindset let alone agenda.

Your sentiment is nice, but in reality and fact- previous years of history prove your rationale to be untrue.
Sunningdale was never going to be accepted by establishment/unionist/loyalists and nationalists/republicans knew they needed more guarantee as it quite obv wasn't going to work.
Only after a campaign fighting BACK did people sit up and take notice.
Disgraceful it had to come to that.
Sorry to have to bring it up - but if you had actually personal and family experience and knowledge of what had historically gone on for decades prior to gfa - you might and prob see things a whole lot differently.

[lynchbhoy]

Guerilla warfare is hard to defend against but somehow I think that with all the advances in technology, surveillance and intelligence gathering, any campaign against the Brits militarily wouldn't last very long. Most combatants would be either dead or in jail.

I couldn't see a new game ending up a draw. You'd get big odds on a draw and bigger odds on a defeat for the Brits.

Guerilla warfare cannot exist today.

The IRA got out at the perfect time but without anything to show for the deaths of any of their members in the previous 26 years.

If the Brits ever decide end their interest here, it'll be because of economic reasons - not anything any campaign achieved.

Your opinion is interesting - in the opinion of ex volunteers I know and families of dead volunteers, they are happy that parity and equality have been installed in the 6 counties. There is no longer the same systematic persecution of nationalists or GAA men just because it would send a tyrannical message out to the rest of the parish etc
Our kids and families are free to grow up careless of political or violent oppression.
No longer second class citizens with teaching the top level of achievable career for young nationalists.Main objective achieved. Reunification will happen depending of economics.

I understand that some people will feel that as a form of comfort but it's not really logical thinking in my opinion.

You're underestimating the roles of people like Hume over the last 30 years and the role of our friends on the continent.

In terms of volunteers, maybe I'm wrong but social and economic betterment was far from their thoughts. There was one goal and it was the same one that drove many campaigns right back to the 1500s.

Maybe the older you get you lose the fire but when I think of the many many friends and relations who lost their lives around the ages of 17-23 it's really sad. They went to their grave and their last thought was striking a blow for old Ireland and removing British rule.

The question is...did they? Was it all worth it? You need to remove sentiment from the decision.

Your logical opinion and thinking is far from that of the volunteers.
Men who I know and have discussed motives and objectives with. Uneducated men who wanted parity of citizenship and financial advancement of the next generation.

Hume et all did their best but as we saw in civil rights march in Derry - was as powerless most of the time as anyone else. That's actually paraphrasing him as I asked him similar questions at a friends house about 15 years ago - he was friendly with my friends father. House in inishowen.

Eu laws came in but as we know the British gov never heeded anyone else- Geneva convention etc ( republicans also guilty of certain things in a dirty war)

[Maguire01]

Guerilla warfare is hard to defend against but somehow I think that with all the advances in technology, surveillance and intelligence gathering, any campaign against the Brits militarily wouldn't last very long. Most combatants would be either dead or in jail.

I couldn't see a new game ending up a draw. You'd get big odds on a draw and bigger odds on a defeat for the Brits.

Guerilla warfare cannot exist today.

The IRA got out at the perfect time but without anything to show for the deaths of any of their members in the previous 26 years.

If the Brits ever decide end their interest here, it'll be because of economic reasons - not anything any campaign achieved.

Your opinion is interesting - in the opinion of ex volunteers I know and families of dead volunteers, they are happy that parity and equality have been installed in the 6 counties. There is no longer the same systematic persecution of nationalists or GAA men just because it would send a tyrannical message out to the rest of the parish etc
Our kids and families are free to grow up careless of political or violent oppression.
No longer second class citizens with teaching the top level of achievable career for young nationalists.Main objective achieved. Reunification will happen depending of economics.

Some will say that indeed - and many of them will believe it. Others will say it rather than admit the futility of what happened here. Others again will say that it was a waste of time and failed to achieve the primary objective.

And as I have said before, it's a pretty big assumption to say that without the "war" nationalists would still be the second class citizens they were in the 1960s. It assumes that the world otherwise stands still. The world became a very different place in those 30 years - attitudes to racism, homosexuality, unmarried mothers, the position of the Church etc. - yet there's this assumption that without violence, Catholics would have remained second class citizens, that NI could have continued to exist as it did. It also totally ignores changing demographics, the demise of the traditional employment for the Protestant population, the education of the Catholic population...

With decades of previous treatment metres out to nationalists ( could count hundreds of years) it was not on any horizon to change in the ruling establishment/loyalist/unionist mindset let alone agenda.

Your sentiment is nice, but in reality and fact- previous years of history prove your rationale to be untrue.
Sunningdale was never going to be accepted by establishment/unionist/loyalists and nationalists/republicans knew they needed more guarantee as it quite obv wasn't going to work.
Only after a campaign fighting BACK did people sit up and take notice.
Disgraceful it had to come to that.
Sorry to have to bring it up - but if you had actually personal and family experience and knowledge of what had historically gone on for decades prior to gfa - you might and prob see things a whole lot differently.

You know that I didn't? You think there were no previous generations in my family? Or the families of other nationalists who can (and could always) see the futility of violence in our country?

And to state that "previous years of history prove your rationale to be untrue" suggests that the world was the same in the 70s and 80s as for the first half of the century. I've given numerous examples of how it was very different. In addition to what I mentioned, someone else mentioned Europe, employment legislation, there's were changes to housing legislation in 1971 etc. If you genuinely think NI could or would have remained as it was in the 1960s... a quick look at the rest of the world would suggest otherwise.

[lynchbhoy]

the rest of the world moved on and the 6 counties didn't - it took more than talk (or lack of) to move it on sadly

your hindsight is nice....but not accurate

[ONeill]

Your logical opinion and thinking is far from that of the volunteers.
Men who I know and have discussed motives and objectives with. Uneducated men who wanted parity of citizenship and financial advancement of the next generation.


.....we either mixed in very different circles or your old age is showing.

The 17-23 year old volunteer joined for one reason only and it was an age-old motive on this island.

[lynchbhoy]

Your logical opinion and thinking is far from that of the volunteers.
Men who I know and have discussed motives and objectives with. Uneducated men who wanted parity of citizenship and financial advancement of the next generation.


.....we either mixed in very different circles or your old age is showing.

The 17-23 year old volunteer joined for one reason only and it was an age-old motive on this island.

Undoubtedly yes

You obv haven't spoken to too many ex volunteers

Ask the question to any of them as to the root of their motivation!
They are not warmongers on a blood lust!!

[ONeill]

I think that's the problem here. You are speaking about revisionists today. I'm talking about East Tyrone circa 1988. If you think young lads became volunteers for economic or social development then you're living in cuckoo territory.

[Saffrongael]

Cuckoo land indeed lynchboy.

What you are trying to say is just the revisionism that is becoming apparent in the last few years. Because the twin aims of a United Ireland and the "Brits out" we're not realised we are now told they weren't the aims, it was all so Catholics could get a job and a house 

And before you say it, yeah I have spoken to and know plenty of ex volunteers.

You seem to think you have a monopoly there

[lynchbhoy]

I think that's the problem here. You are speaking about revisionists today. I'm talking about East Tyrone circa 1988. If you think young lads became volunteers for economic or social development then you're living in cuckoo territory.

Nope I'm talking about the motivation from the 70's before and after

[lynchbhoy]

Cuckoo land indeed lynchboy.

What you are trying to say is just the revisionism that is becoming apparent in the last few years. Because the twin aims of a United Ireland and the "Brits out" we're not realised we are now told they weren't the aims, it was all so Catholics could get a job and a house 

And before you say it, yeah I have spoken to and know plenty of ex volunteers.

You seem to think you have a monopoly there

Not a monopoly - I can only speak about personal exp and from the ex IRA and ex INLA lads ( most ex POW, some ex hunger strikers) that i know, met and asked questions of - as I was intrigued by their motivation.

I ask you if you asked the deeper question after the initial response of ' I wanted to fight the Brits ' or ' I wanted a united Ireland ' ( though no one I spoke to ever gave that as the actual reason for volunteering.
One response was for his brothers and sisters kids to grow up in a society free from persecution and able to get the jobs they were denied because they were catholic. ( the guy had cousins educated in queens that had to go to England and oz in order to fully utilize the phd and degrees they obtained)

Maybe there were some blood thirsty fellas among them that wanted to fight the Brits and get a re-united Ireland - but while only a few might be poets like sands, I'd say only a few were thoughtless savages. Human life needs motivation. Defending lives was part of it but most if you really ask for motivation will give you a real answer rather than the glib cliche.

[naka]

I think that's the problem here. You are speaking about revisionists today. I'm talking about East Tyrone circa 1988. If you think young lads became volunteers for economic or social development then you're living in cuckoo territory.

Nope I'm talking about the motivation from the 70's before and after

To be far lynchboy I grew up in  South armagh in the 70s and 80s and knew a few who fought and went to funerals of volunteers who died for their beliefs
They joined to free  their country not for anything else
Growing up that was the mantra Brits out
Remember  instructions were  to continue boycotting elections til the hunger strikes,
Remember the bombing campaigns as part of the economic war
Newry growing up was a wasteland
Remember the Easter  commerations when the military speech was that the war was being won and that the Brits will leave


I am not a shinner but respect what these guys joined up for which was in their eyes to free their country