Donegal (2011-2014) v Tyrone (2003-2008) v Armagh (1999-2006)

[Mike Sheehy]

In terms of pure football ability, Tyrone had the best players followed closely by Kerry then Armagh and lastly Donegal. Make no doubt about it, Jim mcGuinness is the only reason why Donegal have won anything. Had they anyone else at the helm. they would have not even have won an Ulster Title. Tyrone and Kerry would have won All-Irelands with Postman Pat as their manager such was the calibre of their players.  Once MCGuinness leaves Donegal will go back to mediocrity again.

Right, Mickey Harte had nothing to do with anything, nor did his system.  But Jim McGuinness had eveything to do with Donegal's success. The players were/are irrelevant.

Pretty much, yes.  To put it simply, Without Jimmy, Donegal would not have won an all-Ireland, Tyrone would have won all-irelands without Harte.

How do you know this?  Before Harte came on the scene they always came up short. Funny how they started winning AIs with him in charge.

Well obviously i dont know this for sure but Tyrone didnt have the same calibre of players before this group came along.  This was a special bunch of players. There is even an argument for saying Harte under achieved with this group.

Tyrone players need a system. They require heavy programming but these days there are just too many bugs in the code. I suggest a reboot.

[tyssam5]

I think there is a strong argument that had the Troubles not happened Kerry would have won a good deal fewer all Irelands between 1969 and 1990.

Down would have beaten them a few times and Tyrone probably would have too.
The security situation meant it took Tyrone much longer to get going but when they did they were well able to beat Kerry in the big matches.

blah blah <cynically manipulate the Nordies> blah blah < politicize everything> blah blah <look for the jewish angle>

blah blah..etc , etc

same old formula

When is the last time a Kerry team has beaten a Ulster/Leinster team in an AI final?

Who cares when you win Sam. They are all as sweet.

Hard to know for sure if they are all as sweet though when you have never done it? I'd say a noughties AI victory over a Tyrone was gonna be that little bit sweeter, remember how much you were looking forward to it in 2005?

[BennyCake]

In terms of pure football ability, Tyrone had the best players followed closely by Kerry then Armagh and lastly Donegal. Make no doubt about it, Jim mcGuinness is the only reason why Donegal have won anything. Had they anyone else at the helm. they would have not even have won an Ulster Title. Tyrone and Kerry would have won All-Irelands with Postman Pat as their manager such was the calibre of their players.  Once MCGuinness leaves Donegal will go back to mediocrity again.

Right, Mickey Harte had nothing to do with anything, nor did his system.  But Jim McGuinness had eveything to do with Donegal's success. The players were/are irrelevant.

Pretty much, yes.  To put it simply, Without Jimmy, Donegal would not have won an all-Ireland, Tyrone would have won all-irelands without Harte.

How do you know this?  Before Harte came on the scene they always came up short. Funny how they started winning AIs with him in charge.

There was nothing funny about it!

Tyrone won AIs because Harte introduced dark arts, cheating, diving, slabbering, mouthing, sneaky underhand tactics, solicitors... Pretty much anything in Order to win an AI.

[BennyHarp]

In terms of pure football ability, Tyrone had the best players followed closely by Kerry then Armagh and lastly Donegal. Make no doubt about it, Jim mcGuinness is the only reason why Donegal have won anything. Had they anyone else at the helm. they would have not even have won an Ulster Title. Tyrone and Kerry would have won All-Irelands with Postman Pat as their manager such was the calibre of their players.  Once MCGuinness leaves Donegal will go back to mediocrity again.

Right, Mickey Harte had nothing to do with anything, nor did his system.  But Jim McGuinness had eveything to do with Donegal's success. The players were/are irrelevant.

Pretty much, yes.  To put it simply, Without Jimmy, Donegal would not have won an all-Ireland, Tyrone would have won all-irelands without Harte.

How do you know this?  Before Harte came on the scene they always came up short. Funny how they started winning AIs with him in charge.

Well obviously i dont know this for sure but Tyrone didnt have the same calibre of players before this group came along.  This was a special bunch of players. There is even an argument for saying Harte under achieved with this group.

Tyrone players need a system. They require heavy programming but these days there are just too many bugs in the code. I suggest a reboot.

And if you give Kerry players 6 or 7 years then maybe, just maybe they can come to terms with the system and perhaps even learn how to use it themselves. Brainless footballers are hard to train though and they can't work out how to win games against well organised teams themselves.

[Mike Sheehy]

Brainless footballers are hard to train though and they can't work out how to win games against well organised teams themselves.

Brainless ? what brains do you need to run up and down the field in a pack. That's basically all Tyrone did. Face it, you just went negative to win and more power to ye. No-one outside Tyrone will ever hold ye in much regard though.

Ye'll never produce a Maurice Fitzgerald or a Colm Cooper. That is more important to us than winning every all-Ireland. Style and class are more important than adding to our total..sure we already have 36 of them.

[Mike Sheehy]

I think there is a strong argument that had the Troubles not happened Kerry would have won a good deal fewer all Irelands between 1969 and 1990.

Down would have beaten them a few times and Tyrone probably would have too.
The security situation meant it took Tyrone much longer to get going but when they did they were well able to beat Kerry in the big matches.

blah blah <cynically manipulate the Nordies> blah blah < politicize everything> blah blah <look for the jewish angle>

blah blah..etc , etc

same old formula

When is the last time a Kerry team has beaten a Ulster/Leinster team in an AI final?

Who cares when you win Sam. They are all as sweet.

Hard to know for sure if they are all as sweet though when you have never done it? I'd say a noughties AI victory over a Tyrone was gonna be that little bit sweeter, remember how much you were looking forward to it in 2005?

back to back All Irelands are especially sweet.

Someday ye might put together back to back quarter final wins. There wont be a cow molested in Tyrone when that happens !

[Mike Sheehy]

Tyrone won AIs because Harte introduced dark arts, cheating, diving, slabbering, mouthing, sneaky underhand tactics, solicitors... Pretty much anything in Order to win an AI.

And eye gouging, don't forget the eye gouging.

Filthy hoors.

[Rossfan]

Tyrone won AIs because Harte introduced dark arts, cheating, diving, slabbering, mouthing, sneaky underhand tactics, solicitors... Pretty much anything in Order to win an AI.

And eye gouging, don't forget the eye gouging.

Filthy hoors.

And don't forget what ye ( the original dark arts win at all costs buckos) did to Tommy Murphy in 1936 

[seafoid]

I think there is a strong argument that had the Troubles not happened Kerry would have won a good deal fewer all Irelands between 1969 and 1990.

Down would have beaten them a few times and Tyrone probably would have too.
The security situation meant it took Tyrone much longer to get going but when they did they were well able to beat Kerry in the big matches.

blah blah <cynically manipulate the Nordies> blah blah < politicize everything> blah blah <look for the jewish angle>

blah blah..etc , etc

same old formula

When is the last time a Kerry team has beaten a Ulster/Leinster team in an AI final?

Who cares when you win Sam. They are all as sweet.

Hard to know for sure if they are all as sweet though when you have never done it? I'd say a noughties AI victory over a Tyrone was gonna be that little bit sweeter, remember how much you were looking forward to it in 2005?

back to back All Irelands are especially sweet.

Someday ye might put together back to back quarter final wins. There wont be a cow molested in Tyrone when that happens !

I bet you'd swap back to back qfs for a 2005 Sam.

[Mike Sheehy]

I bet you'd swap back to back qfs for a 2005 Sam.

Not a hope. Anyone can sneak an AI, even Galway. Winning 2 in a row is where it is at.

[Mike Sheehy]

There was nothing funny about it

Tyrone won AIs because Harte introduced dark arts, cheating, diving, slabbering, mouthing, sneaky underhand tactics, solicitors... Pretty much anything in Order to win an AI.

I always thought it should be two AI a piece between Armagh and Tyrone. The Marsden sending off was a disgrace. At least Canavan got his just desserts here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxlXc3s51Zs

[J OGorman]

I bet you'd swap back to back qfs for a 2005 Sam.

Not a hope. Anyone can sneak an AI, even Galway. Winning 2 in a row is where it is at.

Thats great news for many many many counties

[sensethetone]

There was nothing funny about it

Tyrone won AIs because Harte introduced dark arts, cheating, diving, slabbering, mouthing, sneaky underhand tactics, solicitors... Pretty much anything in Order to win an AI.

I always thought it should be two AI a piece between Armagh and Tyrone. The Marsden sending off was a disgrace. At least Canavan got his just desserts here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxlXc3s51Zs

At least none of the Tyrone players failed a drugs test after an AI final.
Tyrone got 1/4 final wins in 08 and 09 although it is a nethier here or there stat that is remotely interesting.

[longballin]

Interesting debate going on in another thread which I think merits a discussion of its own....

However if Donegal win the All-Ireland they will more than likely not get back to near the same levels as 2012 or 2014 next year given that the phenomenal physical and mental demands required to make their system work at the highest level. As no other team can currently do what Donegal do, it's likely that Dublin will once again win the All-Ireland in 2015 if they are on anything like the same form.

Tyrone's defensive system regularly bamboozled Kerry in the 2000s but Tyrone could never sustain that over successive years, and they were a more talented team than Donegal. Kerry's outrageous pure talent always allowed them back in for more All-Irelands. It's very likely that'll be the case with Dublin (although Kerry also had more pure talent than this Dublin team) as they are comfortably the most talented group of players around now.

It was not just hungry and injuries that prevented Tyrone winning back to back titles. There were many other reasons. Such as the  tragedies the panel had to deal with, Armargh being at a similar standard, not be able to build up slowly and only peak for the provincial final to enter the last 8, unlike other counties could do.

It wasn't hungry or injuries that prevent Dublin winning a back to back this year, it was a mixture of not taking goal chances when it mattered, complacency, and no plan b. That is no guarantee that they would have beat Donegal and Kerry if  they had addressed these issues.

Armagh weren't a factor in Tyrone not being the same force in 2004, 2006, 2007 or 2009, as Tyrone didn't play them in 2004, 2006 or 2007, and Tyrone beat them in 2009 when Armagh were in serious decline. Injuries and other things aside, Tyrone were way off the pace of the their All-Ireland wins in each of those years, and none of the teams that beat them went on to win the All-Ireland.

Donegal clearly have the best manager of the three teams mentioned. Tyrone introduced the blanket defence and Armagh brought the physical aspect to a new level.

Who are/were the best overall ? I think Donegal edge it because they have evolved from the primitive Ulster tactic of simply stopping the other team playing and are now a more positive team than the other two. They also have the best player in Michael Murphy and a better midfield (Tyrone didn't have a midfield in the conventional sense..or in any sense)

I'm struggling to think of any Armagh or Tyrone players that would make the current Donegal team ? Maybe the goalkeeping position is up for debate ? What do ye think ?

Surely Mc Geeney Mc Grane Canavan Cavanagh Mc Conville Mc Guigan Mc Menamin The Mc Entees Mulligan Dooher Mc Donnell all would make that current Donegal team an im sure I have left out plenty others

[Mike Sheehy]

Surely Mc Geeney Mc Grane Canavan Cavanagh Mc Conville Mc Guigan Mc Menamin The Mc Entees Mulligan Dooher Mc Donnell all would make that current Donegal team an im sure I have left out plenty others

Canavan, McMenamin , Mulligan and Dooher are not up to it physically and would be thrown around like rag dolls in any Donegal training session. McConville and McDonnell did not produce the goods to get that second AI so their temperament is very questionable. Murphy and McFadden are much more consistent.

McGeeney makes atrocious acceptance speeches and should be ruled out on that basis alone.