Down Club Hurling & Football

[Pangurban]

1. The provision of top class sporting,social and recreational facilities, particularly in rural areas
2. the provision of a strong focal point, around which local community and national identities are promoted
3  Scor Sinsear and Scor Na Nog which encourage and provide an outlet for local talent
4. Local people particularly youth are provided with opportunity and a good training ground in the working of committes, which enable them to take ownership off and develop projects within there own communities.
5. The promotion of the Irish language
6 Numerous works of charity, which provide financial aids to deserving groups at home and abroad
7. A meeting place where all social, political, and religious classes can mingle and interact as equals
8 A barrier to the complete anglization of the Country
I could go on Ad Infinitum, and im sure there there are many things you could add, but this will give an indication of what i view as positive

[wobbller]

1. The provision of top class sporting,social and recreational facilities, particularly in rural areas
2. the provision of a strong focal point, around which local community and national identities are promoted
3  Scor Sinsear and Scor Na Nog which encourage and provide an outlet for local talent
4. Local people particularly youth are provided with opportunity and a good training ground in the working of committes, which enable them to take ownership off and develop projects within there own communities.
5. The promotion of the Irish language
6 Numerous works of charity, which provide financial aids to deserving groups at home and abroad
7. A meeting place where all social, political, and religious classes can mingle and interact as equals
8 A barrier to the complete anglization of the Country
I could go on Ad Infinitum, and im sure there there are many things you could add, but this will give an indication of what i view as positive

I'm with you now.I suppose we tend to look at results to see what the GAA does in our County but maybe that'll
come too under the new Mangement(s) in 2010 although I know you're not happy that Pete isn't involved with the Seniors.
Although you'd agree there is a bit more harmony within Down as opposed to our neighbours in Armagh.

[6th sam]

That's part of the problem,the nature of our leagues,and the implication of promotion and relegation,means that the championship is relegated to 2nd place for a number of teams.

Am I reading that right? NO YOUR NOT READING IT RIGHT!

You want to abolish promotion/relegation?

MY POINT IS THAT THE PLAYOFF SYSTEM IN IT'S CURRENT FORM,MEANS THAT FOR MOST CLUBS,IRREGULAR FIXTURES AT THIS TIME OF YEAR,AND LONG GAPS BETWEEN GAMES WHEN COUNTY PLAYERS ARE AVAILABLE ,COULD BE IMPROVED UPON,WITH A BIT OF IMAGINATION.AN EXTENDED CHAMPIONSHIP,WITH A "B" COMPETITION,WOULD KEEP ALL CLUBS ACTIVE AT THIS TIME OF YEAR,(WHEN ALL COUNTY PLAYERS ARE AVAILABLE),EXCEPT FOR SEMI-FINALS WEEKEND WHEN ONLY HALF CLUBS WOULD BE INACTIVE,AND FINALS WEEKEND BEING THE ONLY WEEKEND WHEN MORE THAN HALF THE CLUBS ARE INACTIVE.I WOULD ALSO PUT A ROUND OF FIXTURES ON ALL-IRELAND WEEKEND,WITH THE ONUS ON CLUBS THAT GO TO KILMACUD,BRINGING THEIR  FIXTURE FORWARD,RATHER THAN LOSE A FULL ROUND OF FIXTURES.I WOULD ALSO REWARD AND PUNISH 1ST AND LAST WITH DIRECT RELEGATION,AND HAVE ONLY 1 PLAYOFF DAY BETWEEN 2ND AND 3RD FOR PROMOTION AND 2ND AND 3RD LAST FOR RELEGATION-NOT A MAJOR CHANGE,BUT CERTAINLY PREDICTABLE,GIVING A FIXED CLOSE SEASON.

Again,my point is that the league title is not the goal/reward most teams are after-promotion is the real reward,and ultimately promotion should be about stepping up to the next level,and hopefully pushing on.I have been involved in successful play-off campaigns from 4th to 1st positions,and can vouch for the fact that success from fourth does not leave you equipped for the following season.

Now you say promotion is the reward?SEE ABOVE,THE MOST CONSISTENT TEAM SHOULD BE REWARDED,AND IT'S IMPORTANT THAT PROMOTED TEAMS ARE EQUIPPED FOR THE DIVISION ABOVE,ON A WEEK TO WEEK BASIS.A TEAM THAT SCRAPES INTO 4TH POSITION AT THE LAST MOMENT,CAN GAIN MOMENTUM AND BE SUCCESFUL,BUT BE ILL-EQUIPPED FOR A CONSISTENT LEAGUE CAMPAIGN THE FOLLOWING SEASON.
What do you want?REGULAR FIXED FIXTURE LIST FOR ALL,TO ALLOW PARTICULARLY SMALLER CLUBS A CHANCE TO PLAN.ALSO,THAT ALL COUNTY MEN SHOULD BE PLAYING FOR THEIR CLUBS ALMOST EVERY WEEK AT THIS TIME OF YEAR,AND THAT WE HAVE A RIGID CLOSE SEASON FOR RECOVERY OF PLAYERS,MENTORS,REFEREES AND PITCHES.THE MINOR CHANGES TO THE PLAYOFFS THIS YEAR ARE A STEP IN A POSITIVE DIRECTION.A FEW MORE LEAGUE IMPROVEMENTS WOULD HELP FURTHER.A CHAMPIONS LEAGUE FORMAT FOR THE CHAMPIONSHIP MAY BE A BRIDGE TOO FAR,BUT INTRODUCING A "B" CHAMPIONSHIP,WOULD GIVE ALL CLUBS AT LEAST 1 EXTRA CHAMPIONSHIP FIXTURE,AND HELP COUNTY BOARD COFFERS.THE KILMACUD SOLUTION ALSO HELPS CONSISTENT FIXTURES IN SEPTEMBER,AND THE FIXED SINGLE PLAYOFF DAY,HELPS ENSURE A RIGID CLOSE SEASON TO HELP PRE-PLANNING AND RECOVERY.NONE OF THESE CHANGES ARE MAJOR,SO SHOULD MEET THE APPROVAL OF EVEN THE MOST CONSERVATIVE

[mournerambler]

I went to watch the Bryansford v An Riocht friendly tonight & it is such a pleasure to be able to watch Martin Clarke on a GAA pitch, the lad's distribution & free taking really was text book stuff tonight.
In the 2nd half he was lining a free up from about 50 yards out, while everyone was expecting him to slot it over the bar as he had done in the 1st half, he cheekily kicked it short & ran after it himself, picked it up & proceeded to shoot for a point from closer range only to be blown up by the Bryansford ref for what I can only think was that the ball didn't travel 13 metres, great to see a little bit of natural craft/cuteness returning to Down football.

[andunabu]

A number of things 6th Sam.

1. The league structures aren't perfect, but after the 132 games will be played only one of them will have been a dead rubber, with neither team having anything to play for (Shamrocks v Ballyholland) and in total less than half-a-dozen games with a half a dead rubber, one team having nothing to play for (all in the next 2 series). That is quite remarkable, and something that most sporting leagues in the world would love to have. Nearly every single game in the league series is competitive.

2. Your argument is full of holes. You claim that the league is meaningless up until September. Well it that's the case, how come An Riocht and Ballyholland aren't in the same position as RGU and Kilclief? The most consistent teams over 22 games have no chance of relegation, simple as that.

3. Club football is about club football, not county football. If you spend your whole summer waiting for county players to come back before making it "meaningful", you will simply destroy the game as a sporting activity for the 1,000+ club players in our county. Gaelic Games are summer sports, leave it that way. Your comment on "depending on progress of the county teams in the summer" is downright derogatory to club footballers.

4. Why the league winner has to be involved in play-offs? Well it's quite simple. Finishing top of your section does not make you the league winner, but it does put you in the best position to win the league. Why do so many people have difficulty understanding this? That is your reward for being consistent over the season. Let me tell you this, beating the 2nd/3rd/4th most consistent teams at a neutral venue when they are at full strength is a much better indicator of your team's worthiness for the next tier up, than consistently beating weak teams over the course of a season is.   

Wobbly, as far as point 4 is concerned I have to disagree.  What is the reward??  I can see your point but IMHO the best team over the course of a season is the team that comes first.  What happens if you come 1st after 20 odd games, your players are injured or fatigued after the effort over that season and you get beaten by the team that comes 4th? Not a very fair reflection on your efforts is it?

[thewobbler]

I'll give you an example andunabu.

This season Ballyholland played 4 games at the start of the season without their 3 under-21s, then in the region of 6 games without their 2 county seniors, and even more than that again without their 2 minors.

To the best of my knowledge, the only An Riocht player missing during this time was Brendan McVeigh.

Is that enough enforced absenteeism for us to blame the 9 pts deficit between the sides on? Definitely not. But at the same time, nor is it fair to declare An Riocht as outright league champions for winning a league series that so often was played understrength.

Given that they've been the most consistent team all summer, they have earned the right to the easiest passage to promotion. But teams that provide county players earn the right to a fair hearing too.

[When We Win]

What about a bit of outside the box thinking here. The GAA is a community game for the parish. Therefore why do county players put their county second to club games. This will probably open a can of worms here but i dont remember too many frank mcguigans, micky lindans, dj kanes, wee james', kieran mcgeeneys, peter canavans, henry downeys, tony scullions, etc saying to their clubs 'sorry cant play in the next two weeks, i have a county game'. In this county it should be left to a player to decide if he wants to play club five days before a league game, even championship for that matter. Players ae too pampered. I wouldnt expect County palyers to have to play on friday then for down on sunday but getting two weeks nearly is ridiculous. why not m
offer the teams the option to play on a wednesday. Dont go mad at me here now, but small changes dont work. Make bloody big ones instead

[6th sam]

I'll give you an example andunabu.

This season Ballyholland played 4 games at the start of the season without their 3 under-21s, then in the region of 6 games without their 2 county seniors, and even more than that again without their 2 minors.

To the best of my knowledge, the only An Riocht player missing during this time was Brendan McVeigh.

Is that enough enforced absenteeism for us to blame the 9 pts deficit between the sides on? Definitely not. But at the same time, nor is it fair to declare An Riocht as outright league champions for winning a league series that so often was played understrength.

Given that they've been the most consistent team all summer, they have earned the right to the easiest passage to promotion. But teams that provide county players earn the right to a fair hearing too.

I respect that that is probably the crucial difference between us wobbler.Being declared as league champions is no big deal to most,the reward that they want is promotion should it be in 1st or 2nd place.The league trophy is a small bonus.I would be more concerned about getting the season over so that I could recover and plan ,for the following year in the league above.I don't want to be disrespectful wobbler,but as  has been proved before,Ballyholland have to play understrength so often,in Div 1 as well,inevitably get caught in the bottom 4,and suffer relegation.I know that some in your club feel this perpetual end of season play-off uncertainty has hindered your development as a club.Perhaps an extended championship when your county men are available,and a fixed close season could be the catalyst Ballyholland needs to go the next level,which I feel you deserve,given your contribution to county squads and your recent underage strength.I am genuinely interested to know,if you were to be given a choice between being 2009 Div 2 champs,and Div 1 survival in 2010-which would you choose.

[Pangurban]

Agree totally with WhenYouWin, competitive club games are better than meaningless challenge games or enforced inactivity. Co.Players want and need to be playing football, particularly for their clubs. These starred games are a fairly recent innovation and have not be shown to be beneficial

[angermanagement]

Surely every player worth his salt wants to play in the top division and be succesfull.

The whole idea of the play offs was to give the club players games on a consistant basis whilst its not perfect its the fairest system to all concerned.

[amallon]

Kilcoo v Loughinisland Highlights
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XabYZ9ou01E

We will be going the junior and intermediate finals as well.

[6th sam]

Surely every player worth his salt wants to play in the top division and be succesfull.

The whole idea of the play offs was to give the club players games on a consistant basis whilst its not perfect its the fairest system to all concerned.

Let's be clear here,the playoffs this year are top 3 anyway.The only change I am proposing is that there is 1 less relegation playoff place,and that the winner is automatically promoted.Either 1 of these would be a further improvement on top of last year's changes,so that the fixtures secretary can provide a rigid fixture list.In addition my Kilmacud proposal,and "B" Championship will ensure more regular football for all in September.Our fixture list is fairly rigid until August,and thankfully there are no longer squeezed in matches in April/May.Further development would give club and county players the opportunity to plan ahead with holidays,work  committments,etc.The reason why I am so obsessed with the club fixtures is I have watched so many players and mentors give up GAA because they can not plan at this time of year-particularly those with family and work committments.The fixtures secretary has  listened to previous arguments and definitely made improvements over the last couple of years,and a few further improvements,could ensure a rigid season long fixture list for all.
Pangur Ban,I take your point about the starred games,but they are a necessary evil.I think it is reasonable however to have a round of club fixtures the weekend before an NFL fixture.The danger is if you make the gap between club and county games smaller,you could have some county players choosing not to play for risk of injury.This already happens in soccer when ironically players appear to cry off from international games,to rest for their clubs!

[When We Win]

Good video highlights. Based on them I want to run a competition. Number 24 is highly entertaining to watch. So lets see who can predict how many times he does Head, Mouth, Nose, Neck. Watch and you'l understand. He must think he is going bald!!! He actually reminds me of that guy that jumped into the Utd team photo.

No. 24 I applaud your fine efforts to find your head, and the disbelief shown when your not entirely sure if its there or not. Looks like you might have been on te drink early!!!

[When We Win]

Pangur Ban,I take your point about the starred games,but they are a necessary evil.I think it is reasonable however to have a round of club fixtures the weekend before an NFL fixture.The danger is if you make the gap between club and county games smaller,you could have some county players choosing not to play for risk of injury.This already happens in soccer when ironically players appear to cry off from international games,to rest for their clubs!
[/quote]


Players should not be chosing County before club. My point earlier is what type of breed are the county players that they are worried about injury. Just get on with it. Helping the club fulfill the aim to be the best should come first. The problem now is that club does not mean enought. With county your getting expenses, free gear, media publicity, better job prospects could be argued, an element of fame, etc. What does the 15 guys left in the club get for having to go that extra mile for survival in difficult games without starred players. They are the ones competing outside of their limits and getting injured.

I knew boys playing two level of under age football, schools, reserves and in some case seniors and they were still in uniforms. They didnt care about getting hurt playing for reservce when they should have been thinking about the Rannafast or Herold Cups. Take a leaf county players and Man-Up yourselves and lets get on with fair competitions. In leagues the winner is champions, the losers are relegated.

Look in division 2. Glassdrummon and Darragh Cross to the best of my knowledge do not have county players so why should they have a playoff. They havent been crippled with starred palyers. So why would either of these teams need play-offs?

Chelsea and Arsenal do not demand playoff games when their players head of to Africian Cup for a month.

[maldini]

Pangur Ban,I take your point about the starred games,but they are a necessary evil.I think it is reasonable however to have a round of club fixtures the weekend before an NFL fixture.The danger is if you make the gap between club and county games smaller,you could have some county players choosing not to play for risk of injury.This already happens in soccer when ironically players appear to cry off from international games,to rest for their clubs!

Players should not be chosing County before club. My point earlier is what type of breed are the county players that they are worried about injury. Just get on with it. Helping the club fulfill the aim to be the best should come first. The problem now is that club does not mean enought. With county your getting expenses, free gear, media publicity, better job prospects could be argued, an element of fame, etc. What does the 15 guys left in the club get for having to go that extra mile for survival in difficult games without starred players. They are the ones competing outside of their limits and getting injured.

I knew boys playing two level of under age football, schools, reserves and in some case seniors and they were still in uniforms. They didnt care about getting hurt playing for reservce when they should have been thinking about the Rannafast or Herold Cups. Take a leaf county players and Man-Up yourselves and lets get on with fair competitions. In leagues the winner is champions, the losers are relegated.

Look in division 2. Glassdrummon and Darragh Cross to the best of my knowledge do not have county players so why should they have a playoff. They havent been crippled with starred palyers. So why would either of these teams need play-offs?

Chelsea and Arsenal do not demand playoff games when their players head of to Africian Cup for a month.

[/quote]

are you suggesting that teams in relegation play offs should be relegated automatically based on whether they have county players or not?

crazy idea