Down Club Hurling & Football

[BRIDGE LAD]

PANGURBAN  -   I dont think your wise mate, to come out with a statement like that about Benny Coulter is pure madness! You obviously dont know much about football. How could Down be better without benny, do you not remember his goal against Tyrone in the ulster final, all his scores infact playing for Down, as amallon says he hasn't had anyone to play with this last 7/8 years!
Just remember its still only MCKENNA CUP stop getting carried away, we'll see how we get on against Derry or sligo in the national league before judging the new lads. We'll just wait and see how long benny stays on the bench, he's by far the best footballer in Down never mind Ulster so sort yourself out!

[BRIDGE LAD]

Could be interesting playing John Clarke in full forward and Benny in the corner, it could give Benny more freedom to take a man on like Mickey Linden before him instead of always having to be the target man and play with his back to goal.

Benny would be better as a third midfielder let him roam where ever he wants he'd be unstoppable!

[whyarerefssobad]

have been watching football a long time and for anyone to say a  team is better without Benny coulter or a player like him does not no what they are on about Benny would have got on any off downs all ireland wining teams fact. hopefully this is the year where the players around him can step up to the plate

[Pangurban]

Its not Bennys ability that is the issue here, it is his role on the team. Playing him at FF. has weakened the team performance, made us tactical one trick ponies. I reassert that the overall team performances on the occasions when Benny has not been playing, have  been better. I never suggested dropping him, merely pointed to a blindingly obvious problem with his present deployment. One can point to individual goals, but the truth is his overall scoring ratio is low. Not his fault, due to heavy marking, poor and usually inappropiate supply. Over the past week we have witnessed some wonderful scores, taking from distance. Had Benny been on the edge of the square, his colleagues would have been dropping those Balls in wastefully on top of him, as we have seen so often last season. Unless radical changes are made, time will prove me right, and we could find ourselves playing in the Tommy Murphy Cup. We certainly dont belong there. To address the question of Bennys individual talent. Undoubtedly enormous talent and potential as yet unfulfilled. To place him among the top twenty in the Country over the last few years is just plain silly.

[western exile]

Its not Bennys ability that is the issue here, it is his role on the team. Playing him at FF. has weakened the team performance, made us tactical one trick ponies. I reassert that the overall team performances on the occasions when Benny has not been playing, have  been better. I never suggested dropping him, merely pointed to a blindingly obvious problem with his present deployment. One can point to individual goals, but the truth is his overall scoring ratio is low. Not his fault, due to heavy marking, poor and usually inappropiate supply. Over the past week we have witnessed some wonderful scores, taking from distance. Had Benny been on the edge of the square, his colleagues would have been dropping those Balls in wastefully on top of him, as we have seen so often last season. Unless radical changes are made, time will prove me right, and we could find ourselves playing in the Tommy Murphy Cup. We certainly dont belong there. To address the question of Bennys individual talent. Undoubtedly enormous talent and potential as yet unfulfilled. To place him among the top twenty in the Country over the last few years is just plain silly.

Really ?

But you did say things like....

... Benny is a good footballer, not a great one as some on here seems to think, who presence is detrimental to the team. His return will bring an end to the expressive, flowing football ....

... with the proviso that he would not automatically be guranteed his place on his return.

... but his presence and influence was certainly a contributory factor

Will you accept that the tactic of depending on Benny Coulter for scores was a bad game plan?   
And that Benny Coulter is not, and has never been part of the managament or couching staff of the county team, and therefore should not be shouldering the blame for a flawed game plan?
And that he is indeed a good enough player to consistently make the first 15 when fit?

[Pangurban]

I stand over all my quotes used in your post, and agree with your last three assertions, But that still leaves us with the original problem, how to use Benny in a way that does impact badly on overall team performances, if we dont solve that connumdrum then we are better playing without him, not that this would be a desirable option. We must get him out of the FF line, where he is to easy a target for the easy option

[whyarerefssobad]

as was said on here before Benny played midfield for the minors in 99 and scored at least a goal in every round it proves he can still score from midfield as this is also a problem position for us think he should get a run in the league there see what happens if not number 12 but he has got to be in the team end off

[southdown]

If Benny is played further out the field ie at number 12 or at MF he will be harder to mark than if he is standing on the edge of the square.  I would imagine that his runs from deep would cause havoc in opposition defences.  He would definitely be much harder to mark.

IMHO put Clarke at FF to act as a target man to feed off while also taking a few scores, Mc Comiskey and Hughes/Sexton/Murtagh in the other corner.  Couple this with Benny's runs from deep and I think you are talking about a formidable attack.  Also there are options now for the number 11 shirt with McKernan and Walsh.  Could Murtagh do a job at number 11?

Anyone doubting Coulter is nuts.  Look at this years county final, came on near the end and scored a goal and a point - game over, he was the difference.

[thewobbler]

A few years ago I was in the move-Benny-out-the-field camp, but I certainly wouldn't be anymore. When you think about it, Benny's greatest gifts as a footballer are his hangtime, his ability to turn, his balance, and his finishing ability in front of goals. Or in short, he is a goal machine, and it only makes sense to play him as close to the posts as possible.

As for playing him out the field - let's be honest, Coulter is a player who does his best work on the ball, and not off it. He's not a grafter. He's not a "give and go" type. He's not a breaking-ball specialist, and he's not going to outcatch 6' 4" battle-hardened county midfielders too often. He's not a wing-forward. Wing-forwards are players who are used to not being the central attraction. He would either drift inside on top of the 11, or find himself lost on the wing. The only place I could see him out the field is at 11, and the only way to play him at 11 is to get him running onto the ball at speed, and offer your full-forward line instructions to take their markers away from the middle once Coulter takes off. You know though, this wouldn't help our one-team syndrome one iota.

Coulter is phenomenal full-forward and we should be looking to build a team around that talent. But, Benny has to play his part here as well. In the coming season, I hope to see more dummy runs from him. I hope to see him go up occasionally to break the ball down to his full-forward partners rather than trying the spectacular everytime. I hope McComiskey plays alongside him and makes it very clear to him that he doesn't cut off his runs, no matter how much seniority he has.

[whyarerefssobad]

thewobbler you say coulter is a player who does his best work on the ball then midfield or half forward it has to be how many times over this last 3 or 4 years have we watched benny stand on the edge of the square and the ball not come in you also say he is not going to out catch 6"4" battle hardened midfielders  i think he would catch more than any other midfielder down have at the minute i have watched the last 3 games down have played and i would say between them they would not have caught 7 balls for me he has to be out the field

[lisdoon1]

To place him among the top twenty in the Country over the last few years is just plain silly.

Pangurban

Did santa bring you a glass stomach for christmas??

I hope so beacuse your head is firmly up your ass and the glass stomach will help you see where you are going.

So let me see, those who picked him for the International Rules (ireland Elite players) are just plain silly people.

I cant wait to you become the county manager, you seem to know so much, in fact, lets take a vote now to get rid of Ross and install Pangurban, the man with all the answers.....

Benny is in my top 10 players on this Island

All my own opinion of course...

[thewobbler]

In terms of ability, Coulter is in the top 10 in Ireland, without doubt.

In terms of what he has produced in Championship football for his county, nowhere near it.

[Pangurban]

You are entitled too your opinion lisdoon, i just hope you never have to defend it in any intelligent company, you will make a laughing stock of yourself

[western exile]

calm down lads!  we will be going around in circles .

Wobbler, there is doubt in Benny's goal scoring ability. And  I agree with you that Benny's greatest gift as a footballer is his hang-time.  But all the best footballers in Ireland with this same gift are applying it closer to the middle of the field than the goal. 

[thewobbler]

But all the best footballers in Ireland with this same gift are applying it closer to the middle of the field than the goal.

But they aren't. The only player I can think of with his hangtime is Kieran Donaghy, who plays FF.

Midfielders don't need hangtime, they need height and timing. Most of them just break the ball anyway...and it's kind of pointless to hang in the air for 2 seconds to slap the ball onto the ground. Hangtime is more useful in a full-forward than a midfielder because once he is up, it encourages the full-back to with him. If he outhangs the full-back, he has a clean catch close to goal. If a midfielder's opponent goes up too early, one of his teammates will be coming through the side door and one of them will be sitting at the front door anyway.