Down Club Hurling & Football

[bigarsedkeeper]

It's very difficult to get both right. GAA is all about developing players to improve bring success to that particular club and by knock on the county. My own lads started soccer this year and you can see how different the set up is. It's about developing players full stop. Some stay at the club and play first team, some only ever play 3rds or lower, some play 5 a side and some move on to bigger clubs. They have more teams and less pressure which is great for the kids but you have to deal with more players that are never making past 12 years old and the issues that brings.
A lot of the coaching tips you hear on twitter etc are from people coaching in a big club in Dublin where they need to keep 10% of the U11s they have and the parents have no real affiliation with any particular club. In most clubs in Down you need 70% of players to be retained.

[stiff breeze]

Befair, i would argue day and night that the two biggest drivers of GAA interest - at all ages, among all abilities - is success for your club/parish, immediately followed by success for your county.

The two biggest drivers of gaa interest in any young person are their parents and wanting to play with a group of friends . Never once heard a child talk about the love of their club or county . That comes much later and presently the only love for county football is the bit of prestige that comes with it . Coaching structures need to change , coaches need to get better , we need better coaching awards . The coaching awards within the county presently are a joke , any eejit could become a level 1 coach and still not have a clue how to run a session . 

[thewobbler]

Tyrone have players coming of 5-6 macrory cup schools at present. They're playing grade A, full sized football at school from 11 years old. That's where I'll look for my evidence for which side to choose.

Erm, as WolfeTone has pointed out there is a two-touch rule in place in U13 club football in Tyrone and has been for some time now back to when it was an U14 competition (introduced in 2009 IIRC). I think Derry have the same rule at the same age level too.

I'm happy to be corrected! Is it even two touch in championship?

So for the past 10-12 years, all Tyrone u13 (u14s) have played Go Games format for all club games, but roughly 80-100 of them a year play full rules in D'Alton and Corn na nOg football?

I find this truly bizarre.

Maybe two routes is the best way forward.  Just strikes me as it shouldn't be. When for example do Tyrone defenders learn to hunt in packs?

[manwithnoplan]

Tyrone have players coming of 5-6 macrory cup schools at present. They're playing grade A, full sized football at school from 11 years old. That's where I'll look for my evidence for which side to choose.

Erm, as WolfeTone has pointed out there is a two-touch rule in place in U13 club football in Tyrone and has been for some time now back to when it was an U14 competition (introduced in 2009 IIRC). I think Derry have the same rule at the same age level too.

I'm happy to be corrected! Is it even two touch in championship?

So for the past 10-12 years, all Tyrone u13 (u14s) have played Go Games format for all club games, but roughly 80-100 of them a year play full rules in D'Alton and Corn na nOg football?

I find this truly bizarre.

Maybe two routes is the best way forward.  Just strikes me as it shouldn't be. When for example do Tyrone defenders learn to hunt in packs?

The high intensity hunting in packs probably partially stems from having to immediately apply pressure to an attacker knowing he is intending to pass the ball ASAP, and possession needs to be gained before he does. Defenders need to be close to their men at all times as there is a high likelihood their man will be given the ball at some stage of the attack. Keeps things more "old school" in that sense, stick with your man and eliminate him as an option or get a hand in if the ball comes his way.

It would be a system with pros and cons but sure so is playing the "normal" rules at underage, as stated previously when the strongest players just run the show and rack up huge individual scores, and others barely get a touch.

[RadioGAAGAA]

If that was this year, we'd have almost 40 boys playing two-touch football. And the better ones, learning sweet FA from it.

Out of interest, what do you think they are not learning?

I'd have thought getting used to trying to find the best pass to hit - and then hitting it - would be very good learning for a 13 year old.

Indeed, while we're here, can you outline what you think they would be learning in competitive games at U-13 that would still be of benefit at senior level?

[thewobbler]

If that was this year, we'd have almost 40 boys playing two-touch football. And the better ones, learning sweet FA from it.

Out of interest, what do you think they are not learning?

I'd have thought getting used to trying to find the best pass to hit - and then hitting it - would be very good learning for a 13 year old.

Indeed, while we're here, can you outline what you think they would be learning in competitive games at U-13 that would still be of benefit at senior level?

The key ingredient to any sport isn't the rules, it's the grading. Teams improve from having to play well to win matches. Teams lose interest when no matter how hard they try, it does not matter.

Go Games rules doesn't resolve the difference in two teams' abilities any more or any less than conventional rules does. I've watched my own club both get smashed out of sight, and smash teams out of sight in u11 football the past few seasons.

My preferred format for juvenile football would see that during the league season, struggling teams and slushing teams would literally swap out their divisions every 2-3 games, with the emphasis focused on each club finding their correct level for a 3-stream championship, which would be played on a round robin basis, then knockout stages.

——

We were lucky enough to make u13 county finals each of the past 2 seasons. The first one we lost narrowly in a brilliant game of football. The second we won narrowly in a great game of football. Everything a young player needs to learn about decision-making, tactical variation, controlling nerves, recovering from mistakes, controlling momentum, was on display in these games.

Neither final would be remembered for a young player running 70 yards and lacing it into the top corner. These things really don't happen very often when evenly matched teams face each other. Yet if a newbie was to drop into the discourse above, they'd surely have to believe that the Down football annals are awash with young footballers who could do this on repeat.

[RadioGAAGAA]

edit: This was typed before your post above. Will read it now and respond in due course.



Hmm, just thinking out stupid suggestions here (for underage football) - some are pretty mad - but rationale also included so you see what I'm thinking...

Shoot them down at your leisure 

- Keep full contact in games, its an important thing to learn.
- Rolling subs
- A player can only score up to a set figure (say 15 points total, sum of goals+points), beyond that, their scores aren't counted  [idea is to stop the 12 year old in the body of a 16 year old not learning how to use his team-mates]
- Game is played in quarters [idea is to get more feedback from the manager to the players so they are learning]
- The final score is calculated from each team's best score totals from 2 quarters [idea is to have a match that has both the pressure of wanting to win, and the freedom to experiment/give all kids game-time without sacrificing a result]
- if a team cannot field 15-a-side, but have at least 7 players, then a 7s match is played. If they have 9 players, 9-a-side, same for 11 & 13. Team that can field automatically gets (at least)1 league point. The (reduced size) game is played for another league point [obviously idea is to make more games happen rather than be called off, also feeds into below if it were considered]
- Its probably worth completely rethinking league structures. There is an awful lot of travel time relative to game time for some fixtures. Just taking East Down for example
--- Does it really make sense for Bredagh to travel to Kilcoo to play an U-13 game? Bredagh, St. Pauls & Carryduff could probably field (at least) 2 teams a piece. A 6 team sub-league.
--- Downpatrick, Loughinisland, Teconnaught, Darragh, Ballykinlar, Kilclief, Drumaness, Saul. An 8 team sub-league [Downpatrick have the population to field more than one team] 
--- St Johns, Liatroim, Castlewellan, Kilcoo, Bryansford, Dundrum, The Finn. Another 7 team sub-league [with the town and ford having the population to field more than one team]

Does that make more sense than the current rigid leagues for 15-a-side or 13-a-side?


I'm sure there is loads more stupidity floating around my head. Will add them as they come to mind.

[Johnnysboys]

Befair, i would argue day and night that the two biggest drivers of GAA interest - at all ages, among all abilities - is success for your club/parish, immediately followed by success for your county.

The two biggest drivers of gaa interest in any young person are their parents and wanting to play with a group of friends . Never once heard a child talk about the love of their club or county . That comes much later and presently the only love for county football is the bit of prestige that comes with it . Coaching structures need to change , coaches need to get better , we need better coaching awards . The coaching awards within the county presently are a joke , any eejit could become a level 1 coach and still not have a clue how to run a session .

[/b]

Are they not national coaching awards though?? So everyone in the country that attends a level one coaching session learns the exact same stuff?? I don't think it's done by county or is it??

[RadioGAAGAA]

The key ingredient to any sport isn't the rules, it's the grading. Teams improve from having to play well to win matches. Teams lose interest when no matter how hard they try, it does not matter.

Go Games rules doesn't resolve the difference in two teams' abilities any more or any less than conventional rules does. I've watched my own club both get smashed out of sight, and smash teams out of sight in u11 football the past few seasons.

My preferred format for juvenile football would see that during the league season, struggling teams and slushing teams would literally swap out their divisions every 2-3 games, with the emphasis focused on each club finding their correct level for a 3-stream championship, which would be played on a round robin basis, then knockout stages.

Decent argument there all right. Although I'd definitely be of the opinion the rules can be tweaked for younger grades to balance them more toward learning than pure competition (without losing the competitive element)

I was thinking more within the game itself rather than the fixturing (despite my raising it in post above, it was more there for a talking point)

Maybe early part of season as geographic sub-divisions, then later part of season is divisioned by ability of team (as determined by the earlier stuff).

[stiff breeze]

The main ingredient to any team at any level are the coaches IMO  .Improve the coaches and you improve the players . With respect to all coaches , Coaching in down is at a low level. Given a magic wand to have any home grown manager at your club would there be a long list ? Have we any down coaches/managers in county setups around Ireland outside of our own manager ? We had no one even entering thoughts to be put forward for the county job from within the county .If thats the case at the top end then it means the lower levels are the same as they supply the top end .  All I hear is the players aren't there . They won't ever be there until we invest in creating good coaches to bring them through .

[thewobbler]

I like the idea of sub-regions concept myself, especially at u11 (which to be fair Down largely implement) and u13. The only problem comes when you get a dream team like the recent Burren team, then it's in every local club's interests that all other clubs share the pain of playing them, regardless of travel time. I don't think they ever lost a game at juvenile level, so let's just call them a team for the ages.

The rest of those ideas could be fiddly. I mean, say John Smith from (for talks sake) Mayobridge scores 2-5 in the first 10 mins. Then his mentor (possibly his da) would likely move him to corner back rather than take him off. Mentors are the real pain in the arse, let's be honest. As is the GAA way, they tend to read the rule book for ways to create advantages, rather than understand them as a moral code for the game.

——

Anyhow, why this is becoming more relevant to me.

I've been helping out with our u9s the past couple of years. We are light on numbers but what we do have, has genuine potential.

This year we are moving up to u11 and the lads are properly excited about getting to play on slightly bigger pitches with proper kits and proper refs.

And that it has been declared non-competitive this season bothers me none. They're all still in primary school and shouldn't need a full competitive focus to enjoy football.

But now that u13 has gone Go Games, it's going to be 3 more years before some of these lads experience club football as the same game they watch on TV.... that game we encourage them to watch and hope inspires them.

Meanwhile, there's 7-8 of the team are also playing soccer to a high standard (mid Ulster level). So they're playing 11 a side with fixed positions and interchangeable tactics, with pitches that provide space to revel in and solid opponents to hone their skills against. Playing offside. Playing for medals. The soccer games they watch on Sky, they can fully replicate this down to what they're doing on a Saturday morning. When they watch Andy Robertson play left-back or Kevin De Bruyne play AM, they can actually try to emulate those range of movements, that awareness. For that wee group of talented players, I'd have serious worries for what another 2-3 years of stifled Go Games scenarios might do their GAA interests.

Hopefully I'm wrong.

[RadioGAAGAA]

The rest of those ideas could be fiddly. I mean, say John Smith from (for talks sake) Mayobridge scores 2-5 in the first 10 mins. Then his mentor (possibly his da) would likely move him to corner back rather than take him off. Mentors are the real pain in the arse, let's be honest. As is the GAA way, they tend to read the rule book for ways to create advantages, rather than understand them as a moral code for the game.

That'd be grand though.

The rest of the forwards would now have to think a bit more than "give it to John", and John would also learn more about a new position - and also see the field from a very different perspective - perhaps realising why his full back line can never hit him with a good pass... 'cos his runs are crap.

[charlieTully]

The powerhouses in South Down including CPN are doing Trojan work at underage level
We are as strong at underage as any county in ulster club wise

Burren Mayobridge CPN Kilcoo Belfast clubs are putting in work that should be at the forefront of our county teams

We just are not seeing it transferred to a county minor level

The under 20s had a great run last year and we need to build on that

Pretty sure your under 13s got beat in South down div 2 league final last season

[Johnnysboys]

I like the idea of sub-regions concept myself, especially at u11 (which to be fair Down largely implement) and u13. The only problem comes when you get a dream team like the recent Burren team, then it's in every local club's interests that all other clubs share the pain of playing them, regardless of travel time. I don't think they ever lost a game at juvenile level, so let's just call them a team for the ages.

They were beat in the minor 7s by Mayobridge if my memory serves me right. But even looking at this unbelievable underage team - did the mentors do these lads any favours? They were winning games at ease but I never seen Oran Murdock put into corner back or corner forward, Ryan Magill played in the half back line the whole time and McCarthy in the full back line. They were the strongest three on the team IMO but they are rigid in their development from underage.
Is that managers satisfying their ego by playing them where they will win the game??

How many u13,u15 managers do any of you know from any club would switch their team around for the "good of the player" and sacrifice a result - I'm blank...

[Baile an tuaigh]

Very impressive win for Down today in the hurling agin Kerry who had 3 Limerick players in their team.