Down Club Hurling & Football

[downredblack]

Cleaned out with a shoulder in the second half .

[DownFanatic]

I dont know if anybody seen it in the Tribune on Sunday or the Irish News the other day but the story regarding the Down County Board looking to buy a strip of land at Ballykinlar Camp is a load of crap.

Once again our club football has hit more disappointments. The Bridge, Downpatrick and Bosco all knocked out at the first hurdle. Just an idea but should the County Board look in to a Armagh/Cavan type system whereby each club can grade itself into SFC/IFC/JFC regardless of their League status?

[6th sam]

I dont know if anybody seen it in the Tribune on Sunday or the Irish News the other day but the story regarding the Down County Board looking to buy a strip of land at Ballykinlar Camp is a load of crap.

Once again our club football has hit more disappointments. The Bridge, Downpatrick and Bosco all knocked out at the first hurdle. Just an idea but should the County Board look in to a Armagh/Cavan type system whereby each club can grade itself into SFC/IFC/JFC regardless of their League status?

Yes DF,I think the principle of league position being independent of championship status is the key to resolving club fixtures.
We should have an extended championship-round robin followed by knockout ,as per derry this year.

Your own club,while competitive in all games this year, are a better team with p.mccomiskey.If you were to struggle in the league next year  as a result of having to play a large percentage of league matches without p.mcc.,it should not affect your championship status.And you should get a chance to play in an extended championship campaign with p.mcc on board.
Look at Drumgath,they've been relegated from senior to junior championship in one year--some reward for providing 3 players to the county seniors!!

I hate to harp on ,but I feel our club fixtures are contributing to our lack of success at club and county level-but is there the will to change them?

We need a longer season for all teams,with a more even spread of fixtures throughout the year.
This can not be done without clubs having to play without their county men in certain league matches.Therefore ,to be fair ,league position should not determine championship status.

What's your opinion DF?

[thewobbler]

Sorry 6th Sam, but if Down actually played Championship football for more than 5 weeks a year, your argument might hold some water. In this case, it doesn't.

Ballyholland and Saval got promoted from Division II, despite being the hardest hit in terms of county numbers in that division. Dundrum got promoted to Division II despite being without their star player for those 5-6 weeks.

Drumgath might have endured a handful of tough weeks without their county trio, but the absence of two of their other players to America for most of the season was more telling. Even more telling was getting rid of their manager early in the season and the stinking attitude of a number of their players.


For the record, I believe the way our Championships are filled is the single fairest method of any. To suggest that league form and Championship potential are unrelated is complete nonsense. By and large the best 16 teams in the county compete in the SFC and the next best 16 in the IFC, every year. There will occasionally be one or two teams who end up at the wrong grade, but this is always rectified within one season.

The concept of electing your grade just throws up too many anomalies, mainly caused by greed and/or stupidity from clubs with an inflated opinion of their worth, or clubs who spy an opportunity to pick up easy silverware.

Using this concept, Bryansford could elect to play IFC next season. Well, it would be a pretty f**king pointless competition if they did. In that case, they might as well give the 'Ford a bye into Ulster. Meanwhile, the SFC would be half full of clubs who haven't a hope of progressing unless they meet other clubs who would rather compete in a prestigious competition than at their natural level. 

[6th sam]

Sorry 6th Sam, but if Down actually played Championship football for more than 5 weeks a year, your argument might hold some water. In this case, it doesn't.

Ballyholland and Saval got promoted from Division II, despite being the hardest hit in terms of county numbers in that division. Dundrum got promoted to Division II despite being without their star player for those 5-6 weeks.

Drumgath might have endured a handful of tough weeks without their county trio, but the absence of two of their other players to America for most of the season was more telling. Even more telling was getting rid of their manager early in the season and the stinking attitude of a number of their players.


For the record, I believe the way our Championships are filled is the single fairest method of any. To suggest that league form and Championship potential are unrelated is complete nonsense. By and large the best 16 teams in the county compete in the SFC and the next best 16 in the IFC, every year. There will occasionally be one or two teams who end up at the wrong grade, but this is always rectified within one season.

The concept of electing your grade just throws up too many anomalies, mainly caused by greed and/or stupidity from clubs with an inflated opinion of their worth, or clubs who spy an opportunity to pick up easy silverware.

Using this concept, Bryansford could elect to play IFC next season. Well, it would be a pretty f**king pointless competition if they did. In that case, they might as well give the 'Ford a bye into Ulster. Meanwhile, the SFC would be half full of clubs who haven't a hope of progressing unless they meet other clubs who would rather compete in a prestigious competition than at their natural level. 

Wobbler,I would NOT be in favour of clubs choosing their own championship status.
It would be chosen the first year on league position[as currently] and in subsequent years on  performance over an extended championship-the details of which I'll not bore you with now.

As for Ballyholland and Saval,they are both good sides and they have rarely been out of the top 4 of div 2 or bottom 4 of div 1.Inevitably if they manage to reach the promotion playoffs-they will be well equipped to win them with their county men back.Yet consistently,they have to play a large number of their division 1 league games which leaves them in the bottom 4 of div 1 and back to the grind of playoffs. Is it any coincidence then that  county players pick up so many injuries,wobbler.There must be a better way!Even small changes to the current system ,could improve the lot of all clubs,and also the county.Why do you so jealously guard the old system in it's entirety,wobbler?
Any system that has a ridiculously compacted season of less than 5 months for some clubs is selling the GAA short.In reality,the vast majority of GAA grounds in the county have no competitive senior football for 7 months of the year.How do we expect to promote our games in our parishes on the basis of that?Look at the season long high profile of club football in Derry this year,as a result of their round-robin championship.Think of the promotional value of these championship games for every club.Yet the knockout element is still maintained.
Playoffs:Despite my own club being directly involved in many successful playoff campaigns over the years,the unpredictable dates,times,delayed conclusions and general chaos associated with the current playoff system caused the premature retirement of many in our club who had work or family comittments.
Burnout/injury risk:How can we justify asking amateur players to play 4 games in 10 days,particularly if some have county games or training on top of that?
I could go on wobbler,but I would value your opinion on how we solve these problems-or at least a recognition that they exist.
Our club  system is probably better than most counties-but that doesn't mean it can't be improved further.
Personally,I think the only way to resolve this issue is to have an annual fixtures meeting in the county.The initial meeting should follow the national special congress in january on club/fixtures/burnout,so that we can ensure we address any proposals agreed upon.

[spiritof91and94]

Sorry 6th Sam, but if Down actually played Championship football for more than 5 weeks a year, your argument might hold some water. In this case, it doesn't.

Ballyholland and Saval got promoted from Division II, despite being the hardest hit in terms of county numbers in that division. Dundrum got promoted to Division II despite being without their star player for those 5-6 weeks.

Drumgath might have endured a handful of tough weeks without their county trio, but the absence of two of their other players to America for most of the season was more telling. Even more telling was getting rid of their manager early in the season and the stinking attitude of a number of their players.


For the record, I believe the way our Championships are filled is the single fairest method of any. To suggest that league form and Championship potential are unrelated is complete nonsense. By and large the best 16 teams in the county compete in the SFC and the next best 16 in the IFC, every year. There will occasionally be one or two teams who end up at the wrong grade, but this is always rectified within one season.

The concept of electing your grade just throws up too many anomalies, mainly caused by greed and/or stupidity from clubs with an inflated opinion of their worth, or clubs who spy an opportunity to pick up easy silverware.

Using this concept, Bryansford could elect to play IFC next season. Well, it would be a pretty f**king pointless competition if they did. In that case, they might as well give the 'Ford a bye into Ulster. Meanwhile, the SFC would be half full of clubs who haven't a hope of progressing unless they meet other clubs who would rather compete in a prestigious competition than at their natural level. 

Wobbler,I would NOT be in favour of clubs choosing their own championship status.
It would be chosen the first year on league position[as currently] and in subsequent years on  performance over an extended championship-the details of which I'll not bore you with now.

As for Ballyholland and Saval,they are both good sides and they have rarely been out of the top 4 of div 2 or bottom 4 of div 1.Inevitably if they manage to reach the promotion playoffs-they will be well equipped to win them with their county men back.Yet consistently,they have to play a large number of their division 1 league games which leaves them in the bottom 4 of div 1 and back to the grind of playoffs. Is it any coincidence then that  county players pick up so many injuries,wobbler.There must be a better way!Even small changes to the current system ,could improve the lot of all clubs,and also the county.Why do you so jealously guard the old system in it's entirety,wobbler?
Any system that has a ridiculously compacted season of less than 5 months for some clubs is selling the GAA short.In reality,the vast majority of GAA grounds in the county have no competitive senior football for 7 months of the year.How do we expect to promote our games in our parishes on the basis of that?Look at the season long high profile of club football in Derry this year,as a result of their round-robin championship.Think of the promotional value of these championship games for every club.Yet the knockout element is still maintained.
Playoffs:Despite my own club being directly involved in many successful playoff campaigns over the years,the unpredictable dates,times,delayed conclusions and general chaos associated with the current playoff system caused the premature retirement of many in our club who had work or family comittments.
Burnout/injury risk:How can we justify asking amateur players to play 4 games in 10 days,particularly if some have county games or training on top of that?
I could go on wobbler,but I would value your opinion on how we solve these problems-or at least a recognition that they exist.
Our club  system is probably better than most counties-but that doesn't mean it can't be improved further.
Personally,I think the only way to resolve this issue is to have an annual fixtures meeting in the county.The initial meeting should follow the national special congress in january on club/fixtures/burnout,so that we can ensure we address any proposals agreed upon.

A good friend of mine maintains nobody attended these games.

[DownFanatic]

At the moment I just think Down club football is weak. I think the way we operate our Championships is reasonable enough. However, I would make one amendment to the structure.
I think that a club should be allowed to compete in a Championship for a maximum of two years.
For example if Bryansford finish mid table in Division 2 in 2008 (thus gaining them IFC status for 2009) then regardless if they get promoted back to Division 1 in 2009 they should be allowed to play IFC again in 2010.
Obviously the only exception being that if they win the IFC at the first time of asking.

[6th sam]

A good friend of mine maintains nobody attended these games.

Fair point.I have no idea what the actual attendance figures were [though attendance is not the only measure of whether a fixture is worthwhile or not].However there is no doubt that the round-robin concept brought a freshness to the Derry championship,and prominent publicity throughout the year.Most importantly,it gave all players in the county an extended championship run,yet it still maintained a knockout system.

In any event,would it kill us to try something new?

In my opinion our current club system is stale,unpopular with the majority of players in the county,and may be contributing to our lack of success.
A few changes surely must be worth a try-it's no big deal!

[thewobbler]

It would be chosen the first year on league position[as currently] and in
subsequent years on  performance over an extended championship-the details of which I'll
not bore you with now

.
Two points:
1. Please don't try to tell me that a team's genuine position within the county can be
more accurately gauged by how they perform in a one-off knockout game than to how they
perform over a 22 game league.
2. No matter how you administer the system you propose, it will require someone to make a
final decision on who leaves each competition, and who joins each competition, every year.
If there is a man in Down football willing to take on that job, it is only because they don't
have the wisdom to do it proprtly and fairly. You cannot, for example, possibly suggest that a beaten
IFC finalist who came through the weak half of the draw is more deserving of an SFC place
than the team knocked out by Mayobridge in Round 1.

As for Ballyholland and Saval,they are both good sides and they have rarely been
out of the top 4 of div 2 or bottom 4 of div 1.Inevitably if they manage to reach the
promotion playoffs they will be well equipped to win them with their county men back.Yet
consistently,they have to play a large number of their division 1 league games which
leaves them in the bottom 4 of div 1 and back to the grind of playoffs. Is it any
coincidence then that  county players pick up so many injuries,wobbler.

1. Every team they play in Division I (apart from maybe Kilcoo) is in the same boat as
Ballyholland and Saval, and this balances it all up. On all evidence of the last times
these sides were in Division I, whether fixtures are starred are not makes little
difference to their form. They play better teams when everyone is available.
2. County players spend a lot of time injured principally because a) they train too hard,
b) there is a culture in GAA of training and playing when injured (to do with patriotism),
c) they lift so many weights they think they are indestructible, and to a lesser extent,
d) club referees in Down give them no protection whatsoever. They aren't injured though
through too much football. I'd estimate that from January to October 2007, Ronan Murtagh
played 30 games (6 NL games, 4 CC games, 14 ACFL games, 3 IFC games, 3 play-off games).
Over 40 weeks, really, it's not that much. 

There must be a better way!Even small changes to the current system ,could improve
the lot of all clubs,and also the county.Why do you so jealously guard the old system in
it's entirety,wobbler?

I don't jealously guard the 'old system'. I'm old enough to remember seasons being
finished out in January because the County Board weren't sharp enough and weren't strict
enough to force a manageable fixture list through. For this reason I object strongly to
any attempts to add more fixtures to the calendar. Club players get a minimum 23 games.
Add in friendlies, Ulster Leagues, Sevens, Tournaments, etc., and they are kept very
active.

Any system that has a ridiculously compacted season of less than 5 months for some
clubs is selling the GAA short.In reality,the vast majority of GAA grounds in the county
have no competitive senior football for 7 months of the year.

I fully believe that Gaelic Football is a much more skilful, enjoyable and entertaining
pursuit in the summer time. I have memories of playing a reserve competition in December
and January as a teenager, and they aren't happy memories. Maybe yours are different, but
I have no great longing to play, or to attend football in th winter months unless it's
strictly my choice.

How do we expect to promote our games in our parishes on the basis of that?Look at
the season long high profile of club football in Derry this year,as a result of their
round-robin championship.Think of the promotional value of these championship games for
every club.Yet the knockout element is still maintained.

My name is Anthony McNamee, I live in Ballyholland and I will wager £500 with you now that
Derry returns to the more conventional format within 5 years. Round-robin tournaments only
work when there is serious competition. The Derry Championship might be as competitive as
it gets, but there are still too many dirt-trackers. As for implementing it in County Down, why add another 30 games to the SFC to find out Mayobridge are the best team in the county. 

Playoffs:Despite my own club being directly involved in many successful playoff campaigns over the years,the unpredictable dates,times,delayed conclusions and general chaos associated with the current playoff system caused the premature retirement of many in our club who had work or family comittments.

You were complaining earlier that clubs can't keep players because there aren't enough games. Please make up your mind. My only objection to the play-offs is that the lag between the normal league ending and them beginning is often too long. But, with the Championships rounding up at that time of year, it is understandable. Regarding the play-offs, they are an entirely fair way of gauging whether a team is fit for the next tier up. If you aren't better than the 3rd and 4th best teams in your division, you have no place higher up. But, and this is the bottom line, if we are to play any senior football during May and June - when Down are playing - then we need a play-off system. It's that simple.

Burnout/injury risk:How can we justify asking amateur players to play 4 games in 10
days,particularly if some have county games or training on top of that?
I could go on wobbler,but I would value your opinion on how we solve these problems-or at
least a recognition that they exist.

There was a genuinely frantic start to the 2007 season, I'll give you that. My own hope is that next year we start a week earlier and go towards fixing that problem. But you have to admit, when club players all over the county are bored out of their wits in May, we're playing football at possibly the nicest team of year to do so.
Also, when you use the word 'problems', you are taking it too far. The Down football leagues run quickly, smoothly and with a few notable exceptions (the Drumgath affair), are  issue free. I always say this when people complain - Gaels in our county don't realise just how good they have it. Instead of whinging, moaning and ridiculing the county board because you are little bored with GAA in the county, try commending them for what they have done every once in a while. Our problems compared to those in other counties is like comparing acne with cancer.

Our club  system is probably better than most counties-but that doesn't mean it can't be
improved further.
Personally,I think the only way to resolve this issue is to have an annual fixtures
meeting in the county.The initial meeting should follow the national special congress in
january on club/fixtures/burnout,so that we can ensure we address any proposals agreed
upon.

Rosskarr beat me to it here, but the County Board's hands are actually tied on this matter. The clubs have twice voted against change in the past season. It would seem a lot of clubs are reluctant to give up the status quo. Until that changes, none of you ideas, my ideas, or Kevin Bell's ideas have a chance in hell of coming to pass.

[lecale4]

I don't think the League or Chamionship structure is the problem. The structure hasn't been to blame for our horrendous county championship form over the last few years, nor has it caused our club representatives to flop in the Ulster club championship.
We are years behind the other Ulster counties when it comes to developments squads, coaching, fitness, training methods, facilities etc etc. Look at OwenBeg, Cookstown etc. Look at the workshops being held all over Ulster (seldom in Down). Look at the attendance at these workshops - usually Tyrone, Derry, Armagh etc.
The Co Board needs to get its act together - and fast, otherwise we have another 10 years in the wilderness ahead of us.
We will always produce good players, some school teams will do well and if they get a good crop the Minors might as well - but the last 2 years Minor performances say more about us then '05 I'm afraid.

[off the laces]

st pauls/pol
have youse lodged your appeal yet about the playoffs. did u hear what mitchels claimed at theirs to win it?

[Naomh Pol CLG]

st pauls/pol
have youse lodged your appeal yet about the playoffs. did u hear what mitchels claimed at theirs to win it?

Our appeal has been sent to the County Board...The saga is set to continue

[stpauls]

st pauls/pol
have youse lodged your appeal yet about the playoffs. did u hear what mitchels claimed at theirs to win it?

Mitchels only appealled to get their 2 points from the Drumgath W/O given back to them and won as far as I know.

st pauls/pol
have youse lodged your appeal yet about the playoffs. did u hear what mitchels claimed at theirs to win it?

Our appeal has been sent to the County Board...The saga is set to continue

our appeal was sent to the county board and over turned last night!!

[6th sam]

Wobbler ,much as I would like to respond to your reply ,I'll resist the temptation to answer each point,especially since I won't have time to reply to your potential reply to my reply .
However,let's concentrate on a few things we could agree on.
1.The Down leagues have alot going for them compared to other counties-fair play to the CB.
2.However the leagues are far from perfect and Minor adjustments would answer most of my concerns.
3.Summer football good,winter football bad--let's get more games for ALL in the good weather months.Ensure a rigid closed season.
4.Rigid pre-planned dates/times for ALL matches--This is a must,and is definitely achievable.
5.Fixtures workshop after special congress on burnout/club fixtures in January.
6.Pre-warn clubs that their league position at the end of 2008 may determine their league status for 2009 ,in the event of any reorganisation of the leagues.[so we can avoid any appeals and counter appeals--"we werent told we could be relegated"]

[amallon]

S F C    Mayobridge   Longstone
I F C    Ballymartin
J F C      
P R F C      
R F C    Burren   
M F C    Rostrevor Saval   
U – 16 F C      
U –14  FC      
U – 12 F C       
      
      
            

FEIS   SEVENS

SeniorFootball      
Junior Football      
Minor Football      
Senior Hurling      
Junior Hurling      
Senior Camogie      
Minor Camogie      
      
   


               HURLING

S H C      
I H C      
J H C      
Minor Championship      
U-16  Championship      
U –14  Championship      
U – 14B Championship      
U – 14C Championship      
U – 12 Championship      
U- 12 B Championship      
Betsy Gray Cup      
Betsy Gray Shield      
U – 16 League      
Feile Div 1      
League Div 11      
Minor League      
U – 14 League  Div  1      
U  - 14  League  11