Down Club Hurling & Football

[super reds 99]

Strange game, low scoring and poor handling all round. Reds looked to be dead and buried when the Point got their goal, but fair play to them they stuck at it and sent over 3 unanswered points in injury time. Young Chris Killen was super at corner back, only an U16 too. An interesting final to look forward to in two weeks, Shamrocks will be well up for it after the league defeat a few weeks back.

were did the ref get 7 mins extra time from seemed a bit long!

[ApresMatch]

We were lead to believe that the top 6 in Division two stayed up. However at the weekend then heard rumours that its top 8. Can anyone clarify?

[umpire]

Ex Burren manager now a new Derry manager !!

[thewobbler]

Ex Burren manager now a new Derry manager !!

Can't honestly wait to see whether our County Board are going to challenge this as the most bizarre appointment of the year.

Looks like succession plans, or lack thereof, aren't just a Down problem.

[Brick Tamlin]

It looks to be a bit of a surprise appointment alright.
What has Barton been up to since his Burren days?
(There has been some dough spent down there this last 10years financing their teams)

Wobbler, how do you think a management team should be chosen and who would be your preferred candidates/choices for each of the grades that lie vacant?

[thewobbler]

Brick, you asked for it. Apologies, this goes on a bit. Then a bit more.

Now that we're 10 years on from appointing full-time coaches across the county, and 20 years on from every senior football club paying a manager for their expertise, there really should be a well-formed queue of candidates for each of the roles.

But for one reason or another, this hasn't happened. The visibility and purpose of the coaches is increasingly inconspicuous, while you'd have to go back to Rostrevor in 1999 to find a Senior Championship winner who wasn't in the first two favourites in the betting. Apart from Longstone in the mid 2000s, no outsider has even made a dent at a challenge. All told it suggests a lack of ability around the county to mould and organise, beyond the natural ability of players.

So to put it frankly, we're screwed if we are reliant on people from within the county to bring us forward. There is no evidence to back up any appointment. The only viable candiates from the past decade - based on SFC performance - are James McCartan (never go back), Jim McCorry (an absolute travesty how he was treated, and he won't be back), and Frank Dawson (who has genuinely blotted his copy book with Bryansford - their result against Liatroim was an even worse result than Down in Wexford).

This isn't to say I want an outside appointment, and if paying a fortune to a manager with little-to-no evidence of improving an average team (let's just say Banty), I'd much prefer to appoint someone from inside who'll keep the ship afloat - a Paddy O'Rourke perhaps - while we get our house in order. This isn't soccer; there is no short term fix in terms of buying in players, and maybe it is just time to swallow it up, and plan for the future.

We have a very decent senior football team in Down. But we're still a long way short of the top 4-5 teams.

It would take a brave county board to make a statement like this, for too many of our supporters and county board reps still live in cloud cuckoo land where Down have football brilliance on tap. The "Down Way" (sniggers). These people would need brought on board which means the County Board would immediately have to back it up by ploughing efforts into youth football.

- - -

This is why I'm so welcoming of the "defensive" style of football that is currently running amok in the county. Yes, it's hard to watch. But if it shows that players are willing to become a greater sum than their parts, and that managers are willing and able to assist them in doing so, then first of all our club championships will get closer, and this should have a natural impact on the capabilities of the senior county team.

If it signals the end of trying to get the most talented XV on the field (which in fairness McCorry was guilty of this year) instead of the XV most suited to the game ahead, then it's only a good thing.

Yep it's going to be ugly to watch for a few years, but my guess is that sooner rather than later, forwards across the country are just going to get better. They have to. And if we're not playing this game, our forwards will be left behind.

I'm also welcoming of the return to smaller all county leagues. Unlike in most counties, league football has always mattered in Down, but the 15-team league format has genuinely weakened competitiveness. We should hopefully see the benefits of the reduction again in a couple of year's time. For the life of me I've no idea why county managers would rather have players going rusty rather than sharpening their skills, and more games of high-intensity can only be a good thing. And I'd make it a stipulation of any county appointment that they do not try to interfere with the club game; accept the calendar, accept the starred sytem, or don't take the job... basically don't act surprised or annoyed when June comes and your players are playing for their clubs - plan for it.

Put those things together with a strong emphasis on youth development, and by 2018-19, we should be in a position to challenge for silverware again.

- - -

In the meantime, based on results at minor the past 3 years and the lack of progress of players to senior football, the under-21 job has the look of a poisoned chalice, and good luck to anyone who wants it. A favourable draw - an Antrim or Fermanagh at home - is now a necessity to build up some momentum/confidence and help shake off the shackles. But I can't help thinking that the Down lads who are up in Belfast this year with Tyrone and Donegal footballers of the same age, know that they're behind. That's how it played out before they got to train with them.

I've a fair idea of what's coming through at minor for 2016, and unless there's a few springers appear out of nowhere, whoever gets that job (is it not McCartan and O'Hare?) will also have their work cut out without a favourable draw. There is a bit of talent there - 2-3 very good forwards, 2-3 solid defenders - but you only have to look at how poorly the likes of Red High, St Louis, St Colman's and Abbey have performed in Uster Colleges recently to get a picture of the strength in depth.

Red High and Louis haven't even made it out of MacLarnon Group stages for the past two years, and while Colman's made a Rannafast final in 2014, the majority of those players are the wrong side of January.

Which takes us back to the crux of the problem. We're not producing enough players, and not producing enough high-quality, focused players to be competitive. That, for me, is a much more important problem for Down to solve than who will be the next senior football manager.

- - -

To finally get around to answering your question, I reckon we should:

- declare that the focus of the county will be on youth development for the foreseeable future.
- advertise for each position and make it clear what we expect at each level (I'm not going to say what this expectation should be, but the people doing the hiring should know).
- make it clear in the application process that youth and club systems are, for now, taking priority and that if appointed, they will have to make to without a clatter of back room personnel and adminstrative overheads until the key priorities have begun to show progress (i.e. delivering players).
- make an appointment from whoever is left, and give them an absolute guarantee that if they achieve the agreed goal, they will be re-appointed for the following season, with no ability for the clubs to interject.

I don't imagine we'd have many applicants! and if truth be told I don't have any recommendations either.

[TheClutch]

Twenty one years ago today we won our last silverware at senior level. Two Ulster titles and two All Irelands in three years and then nothing, nadda, zip, zilch. We've seen Armagh come and go, the rise of Tyrone, the Dublin drought 1995 - 2011. Kerry have won six All Irelands in that time, could be seven before the weekend is over. Meath won a couple, even Galway managed one. We came agonisingly close in 2010, close but no cigar.
We've seen managers come and go, from Pete McGrath to Jim McCorry. The highs of beating Kerry in Croke Park again, Kalum King's finger tips against Kildare. We repaid Sligo with interest and then some, to the lows of Aughrim, Enniskillen and the Boyne Wexford.

We have no strategy in place at any level, no training facilities of our own, no management. We managed to make a complete cluster f**k of the sale of Newcastle and we won't mention the fiasco of the purchase of land and planning at Bryansford, but every little helps. I could go on, but I'd be here to next Friday, but no worries there for our highly paid county secretary. It's time for change.

#SackSeanOg

Was just hoping some one would be able to spread some light on the above? Were there previous plans in place to have a centre of excellence or something of the equivalent in Bryansford?
Also are there any plans on the table for such a venture to happen in the future? Having a central location for county trainings, cúl camps and even the county board office would certainly be a more professional approach to what is in current operation.

[Brick Tamlin]

Interesting reading Wobbler. Agree with most of it.
But I think we can safely say that such a logical and structured approach would never be entertained by the County Board.

I also think the clubs have a bigger role to play and a certain responsibility lies with them in terms of quality coaching and mentoring of their youth through the ranks. This probably goes in tandem with a sound link between the local schools and clubs. I just think that some clubs aren't willing to or able to plough more time and effort into their underage structures and spend the hard hours getting it right there so that adult players or of a certain quality or calibre come to fruition.

Still like to know who your recommendations personal choice would be though.

[TheClutch]

With regards to Minor/U21 management; I would like to see a combination of the schools MacRory/MacLarnon teams managers from all around the county be considered or approached for these positions, especially the Minors. Not only will they have good knowledge of our own players but they will also have early insight around into opposition players around Ulster they will be competing against in the championship come May.

[SamFever]

Brick, you asked for it. Apologies, this goes on a bit. Then a bit more.

Now that we're 10 years on from appointing full-time coaches across the county, and 20 years on from every senior football club paying a manager for their expertise, there really should be a well-formed queue of candidates for each of the roles.

But for one reason or another, this hasn't happened. The visibility and purpose of the coaches is increasingly inconspicuous, while you'd have to go back to Rostrevor in 1999 to find a Senior Championship winner who wasn't in the first two favourites in the betting. Apart from Longstone in the mid 2000s, no outsider has even made a dent at a challenge. All told it suggests a lack of ability around the county to mould and organise, beyond the natural ability of players.

So to put it frankly, we're screwed if we are reliant on people from within the county to bring us forward. There is no evidence to back up any appointment. The only viable candiates from the past decade - based on SFC performance - are James McCartan (never go back), Jim McCorry (an absolute travesty how he was treated, and he won't be back), and Frank Dawson (who has genuinely blotted his copy book with Bryansford - their result against Liatroim was an even worse result than Down in Wexford).

This isn't to say I want an outside appointment, and if paying a fortune to a manager with little-to-no evidence of improving an average team (let's just say Banty), I'd much prefer to appoint someone from inside who'll keep the ship afloat - a Paddy O'Rourke perhaps - while we get our house in order. This isn't soccer; there is no short term fix in terms of buying in players, and maybe it is just time to swallow it up, and plan for the future.

We have a very decent senior football team in Down. But we're still a long way short of the top 4-5 teams.

It would take a brave county board to make a statement like this, for too many of our supporters and county board reps still live in cloud cuckoo land where Down have football brilliance on tap. The "Down Way" (sniggers). These people would need brought on board which means the County Board would immediately have to back it up by ploughing efforts into youth football.

- - -

This is why I'm so welcoming of the "defensive" style of football that is currently running amok in the county. Yes, it's hard to watch. But if it shows that players are willing to become a greater sum than their parts, and that managers are willing and able to assist them in doing so, then first of all our club championships will get closer, and this should have a natural impact on the capabilities of the senior county team.

If it signals the end of trying to get the most talented XV on the field (which in fairness McCorry was guilty of this year) instead of the XV most suited to the game ahead, then it's only a good thing.

Yep it's going to be ugly to watch for a few years, but my guess is that sooner rather than later, forwards across the country are just going to get better. They have to. And if we're not playing this game, our forwards will be left behind.

I'm also welcoming of the return to smaller all county leagues. Unlike in most counties, league football has always mattered in Down, but the 15-team league format has genuinely weakened competitiveness. We should hopefully see the benefits of the reduction again in a couple of year's time. For the life of me I've no idea why county managers would rather have players going rusty rather than sharpening their skills, and more games of high-intensity can only be a good thing. And I'd make it a stipulation of any county appointment that they do not try to interfere with the club game; accept the calendar, accept the starred sytem, or don't take the job... basically don't act surprised or annoyed when June comes and your players are playing for their clubs - plan for it.

Put those things together with a strong emphasis on youth development, and by 2018-19, we should be in a position to challenge for silverware again.

- - -

In the meantime, based on results at minor the past 3 years and the lack of progress of players to senior football, the under-21 job has the look of a poisoned chalice, and good luck to anyone who wants it. A favourable draw - an Antrim or Fermanagh at home - is now a necessity to build up some momentum/confidence and help shake off the shackles. But I can't help thinking that the Down lads who are up in Belfast this year with Tyrone and Donegal footballers of the same age, know that they're behind. That's how it played out before they got to train with them.

I've a fair idea of what's coming through at minor for 2016, and unless there's a few springers appear out of nowhere, whoever gets that job (is it not McCartan and O'Hare?) will also have their work cut out without a favourable draw. There is a bit of talent there - 2-3 very good forwards, 2-3 solid defenders - but you only have to look at how poorly the likes of Red High, St Louis, St Colman's and Abbey have performed in Uster Colleges recently to get a picture of the strength in depth.

Red High and Louis haven't even made it out of MacLarnon Group stages for the past two years, and while Colman's made a Rannafast final in 2014, the majority of those players are the wrong side of January.

Which takes us back to the crux of the problem. We're not producing enough players, and not producing enough high-quality, focused players to be competitive. That, for me, is a much more important problem for Down to solve than who will be the next senior football manager.

- - -

To finally get around to answering your question, I reckon we should:

- declare that the focus of the county will be on youth development for the foreseeable future.
- advertise for each position and make it clear what we expect at each level (I'm not going to say what this expectation should be, but the people doing the hiring should know).
- make it clear in the application process that youth and club systems are, for now, taking priority and that if appointed, they will have to make to without a clatter of back room personnel and adminstrative overheads until the key priorities have begun to show progress (i.e. delivering players).
- make an appointment from whoever is left, and give them an absolute guarantee that if they achieve the agreed goal, they will be re-appointed for the following season, with no ability for the clubs to interject.

I don't imagine we'd have many applicants! and if truth be told I don't have any recommendations either.

some very good points here but Down being the ""Ulster Guinea Pig" for the change in age-groups are.I think, making a mistake. Take a young lad who's playing and starting at U14(apllies equally to U16 and Minor)  in 2015 and he's still U13,he'll have two further years at U15.Fair enough but his two mates are not making the team this year and generally next year they would push on for a place in their last year at U14 but under this structure the two lads will be on the bench next year and will only get a chance to shine at their last year of U15/17/19,etc  in 2017. It's a long time to be sitting on the bench at that age. On another point what about U18 teams who struggled in 2015?In the new structures they will continue to struggle as they could possibly have players at College, north and South or over in Britland. These changes will not benefit Down Football and I don't see how this was actually voted in by our Clubs.

[Brick Tamlin]

To be fair they were probably advised that it would be a great idea by some external, non-elected third party in the background of the county board. ie we are Down, the Down way, we will show them all how its done, trend setters etc.
Smacks of the classroom swot sticking his hand up burstin himself to answer every question the teacher asks. Me me me me me. Pick me.

[thewobbler]

Something was mentioned to me the other day about this new underage structure, which struck a chord.

In 2016, Tiarnan Rushe will be in his third season of senior football, and will be a key component of the senior team. But due to the re-alignment, he will again be a minor/under-19. Senior management won't want him playing juvenile football, but minor management will know that if he doesn't play for them, then interest levels will fold at that age group. So he'll be pulled in two directions for another year, and when does play division II minors, he'll bang in 20 points a game, it'll be of genuinely of no use to his progression, and will break the hearts of whoever he is marking - who by this stage should be concentrating on fat 35 years olds in reserve football.

Basically he could do with juvenile football like a hole in the head, especially when lads who are away to college or off to work decide to jack it in.

I understand the issues that this idea was designed to resolve. But my early thinking is that it will create the opposite effect.

[downup]

I'll throw in my 2ps worth, might only be worth 1p when you read it, regarding who I would select as managers for vacant positions. Worth pointing out that this are on the assumption that we are building for the future, putting emphasis on youth and at least holding our own at U21 and senior.

Minor - Liam Hardy - have seen how he is with players, his coaching is great and he along with a good backroom team would be a great man to encourage young players to progress in the county jersey.

U21 - Connor Deegan - looks like he wants to get involved though for me he knows no one at club level in Down. He has worked with a lot of teams in Dublin and I think this could be a good introduction to management in Down.

Senior - the poison chalice - we need someone who is willing to work under enormous constraints and I don't know if anyone would accept what we actually need. For me I think that the likes of a joint effort, where the workload could be shared would be the best approach and people like Cathal Murray, Barney Mc Aleenan, Brendan Mason, Paul Higgins, Shorty Treanor etc. might just work. These guys have all coached and played at a very high level. They hopefully would all be about the £££'s and if they can maintain Down at or around Div 1 or top Div 2 for a few years then great.

I no people will completely disagree with this but hey, I have names out there now. 

[6th sam]

Something was mentioned to me the other day about this new underage structure, which struck a chord.

In 2016, Tiarnan Rushe will be in his third season of senior football, and will be a key component of the senior team. But due to the realignment, he will again be a minor/under-19. Senior management won't want him playing juvenile football, but minor management will know that if he doesn't play for them, then interest levels will fold at that age group. So he'll be pulled in two directions for another year, and when does play division II minors, he'll bang in 20 points a game, it'll be of genuinely of no use to his progression, and will break the hearts of whoever he is marking - who by this stage should be concentrating on fat 35 years olds in reserve football.

Basically he could do with juvenile football like a hole in the head, especially when lads who are away to college or off to work decide to jack it in.

I understand the issues that this idea was designed to resolve. But my early thinking is that it will create the opposite effect.

Would agree entirely , wobbler. The u19 level creates major problems for those above 17 who are already playing senior football. I think the u17 level actually allows a genuine cut off point, correlating with the fact that u17s can no longer play senior. Though clubs such as my own club are being deprived of utilising a batch of players graduating out of this year's u16s , on reflection , it makes sense for these lads in the long term to concentrate on underage at this age. Don't forget that Tiarnan rushe will have 22 senior league fixtures next year as opposed to 15 this year. How then , is he expected to fit in an u19 campaign in addition. As tends to be the case in these fixtures the u19 fixtures could be shoe horned in midweek in April/may/June , again putting more pressure on lads preparing for exams. I think there are other concerns regarding the u13/15/17 age groups , with some weaker players potentially missing out due to the sudden change. I have often thought that with some imagination , actually having competitions for each year group staggered over the season ensures that fewer of the weaker players will miss out. Perhaps this is something to be considered particularly for the first year of the change. I think an autumn u20 competition to replace u18 and u21 may make more sense

[Leonardo]

Any u-19s that are certain starters for their senior team should not play underage football. I think it's time clubs started concentrating on producing senior footballers and forget about winning underage competitions.
Using the example Wobbler used - Rushe is obviously talented enough to play senior football. Why let a manger at u-19 build a gameplan around Rushe.  Other players are being ignored. Without Rushe, there's an opportunity for another young lad to step up to the mark.
Factor in 3 nights a week with seniors, 1 or 2 with 19s, Down u-21s? 
Would Ballyholland prefer to win an u-19 competition, or develop the player? Plus work,on developing the lad that wasn't quite ready for senior football.
To use professional soccer as an example, did the likes of Rooney, Sterling, Owen play for their underage teams as well as the First team?