Down Club Hurling & Football

[thewobbler]

Pangur I'm not sure what you think we'd get from a long term strategy.

St Colman's, St Mark's, both Kilkeel sides and the Abbey have produced a string of top teams in the past decade.

We've won All Ireland minors and got to finals at u21.

The juvenile success rates must be up there with the best of them bar Tyrone.

But visit the club championships next week - all 16 senior sides are in action, and you will not lay eyes on any defenders more suited to county football than those already involved. There's some very good defenders out there but none with the power or size to play at the highest level.

Which is why the lines of Carr, McKernan, Doyle, McArdle and Gordon, fellas who would feature more often in club forward lines growing up than back lines, are shoehorned into defensive roles.


To me this is a demographic anomaly that will adjust over the next few years. You can plot, plan and strategise all you like but if the clubs don't have six foot athletic defenders in their ranks, then the county isn't going to have them either.

[Leonardo]

I believe that James has done a very good job so far. As has been already stated above, we have been punching above our weight for the last three years. Of course he will make mistakes and what manager doesn't? We are able to discuss the game with the benefit of hindsight - James has to make decisions in an instant.
Regarding Dan and Eoin, every manager who has a relative playing is going to get the same stick - Ross got it, Mickey Harte got it. I'm sure they are played on merit, and as most of us are not involved in the training sessions, how can we pass judgement?
As above poster says - get to the forthcoming championship games and see who stands out. I'm not sure who Burren play, but I can guarantee you that Dan in particular will give his usual steady performance. Finally, I have watched quite a few first and second division games this year and there is not that many big men around. The only player that I have thought could add to the county was Sean Parr? from rostrevor

[alba2]

Disappointing defeat yesterday but no time to feel sorry, let's get back at it and beat tipp and see what happens after that. We are an average side but on any given day these lads can pull of big results. A tipp victory and a hopeful quarter final against Mayo and you never no what can happen. But if we meet cork or Dublin we may say farewell.
Thought it was a disgrace to ask 3 panelists, recent call ups I must add, to make their own way to clones yesterday as there was apparently not enough room on the bus. That must gave them 3 some confidence going forward. Joke.

This is an absolute disgrace.  Why take players along to training and then not to the game - i bet there were some dignatries on the bus that are no more needed than the man in the moon.  Water carriers etc on the bus and no need for it.  Let them get taken to the game by car - but god forbid the secretaries son was to be out of the picture and not on the bus to the big game. Joke.  Im not surprised gerard mc cartan has left the panel to be honest - good honest player for club and county but gets treated unfairly to say the least.  He is a much better player than niall brannigan from kilcoo - but jerome will prob have Aaron and daryl on the panel soon enough too and maybe go back for mark and Janine as well.  People talk about family loyalty on this board through James - Jerome has his fair share of family playing too.  I honestly think the lads will beat Tipp and then as someone said if we got maybe mayo we could end up in a semi final.  Think the other 3 provincial champions might be step too far this year to be honest.  Big dan also retiring this year from intercounty.  Hard to replace...

[Mourne Rover]

There is a fair amount of nonsense appearing on this board and it is particularly ludicrous to talk about who might in charge of Down next year when we should be concentrating on Saturday's game. We have a management team in place who have made solid progress over the last three seasons and are one match away from another AI quarter final -  a stage we had never reached even once in the nine years of the open draw before James came in.

Hopefully Wobbler is right about the law of averages when it comes to producing defenders of the required standard. Older fans may remember when we had no less than three outstanding full-backs at the same time  in the 1980s, Tommy McGovern, Mark Turley and Paddy Kennedy, although we still went ten years without an Ulster title.

All three of those celebrated defenders retired around the same stage, but then the likes of Deegan, Higgins, Kane, Breen and later Burns and Magill came along to take their place and the rest is history. If a couple of guys of that calibre joined the existing squad, a range of possibilities would open up for us.

[5 Sams]

Thewobbler and Lucan have hit the nail on the head here lads. Size, physical presence, power, ability to break a tackle, big strong men who can play football. Bottom line is we havent enough players with these attributes.

A perfect example is the 2010 All Ireland Final.Cork brought on Graham Canty, Nicholas Murphy and Colm O'Neill. We took on Conor Laverty, Conor Maginn and Rony Murtagh...excellent players....but do the math!!

[DownFanatic]

To be honest I think that James McCartan has done a superb job with Down over the past three years. He has excelled with an above average but not an excellent squad of players. We will beat Tipp and I wouldn't be suprised if a last four appearance was attained.

We can analyse our current plight until the cows come home but I genuinely think that a solution to our physical limitations lies within our Development Squad structures. At the moment our U15's, U16's and U17's probably meet up for games/matches between 10 - 15 times during the year at a push. This is not near enough to extract the maximum potential from our players. However, Id probably say at the moment that 80% of the counties in Ireland are following along these lines.

If we are serious about pushing on then we need to change the current structures. In my opinion these teams need to be together all year round. Strong lines of communication need to be established between the management of each squad and associated clubs and school teams. Winter physical strength programmes need to be carried out and monitored and maintained throughout the year to compliment training and challenge games. Linkage between each management team needs established so that each squad can progress through each year group with the necessary tailored approach.

I wouldn't rule out the employment of a physical development coach for our county either. This role would involve work with the Senior, U-21, Minor and Development Squads. It would also involve the coach educating clubs and club coaches as to how best approach strength and conditioning plans for club players.

Down's underage record at Colleges and Minor/U21 level in the last decade is probably only second to Tyrone. We produce flair footballers who possess raw talent and skill. The way the modern game is going revolves around the aspect of physicality. We, like many other counties, are falling short in this respect. By improving our Development Squad system and placing a greater emphasis on the physical development of our county and club players, I have no doubt that we would be able to easily compete with the Donegal's and Dublin's of the modern era.

[Pangurban]

If you want to watch athletes, then the Olympics is the place for you, i would prefer to see Footballers in Croker. To even talk about strength development for underage players is absolutely ludicrous.

[bcarrier]

If you want to watch athletes, then the Olympics is the place for you, i would prefer to see Footballers in Croker. To even talk about strength development for underage players is absolutely ludicrous.

Size/physique is a factor but not the only one. I would recommend a read of the Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell by anyone interested in keys to success. I have lifted this bit from Wikipedia ...

The book begins with Gladwell's research on why a disproportionate number of elite Canadian hockey players are born in the first few months of the calendar year. The answer, he points out, is that since youth hockey leagues determine eligibility by calendar year, children born on January 1 play in the same league as those born on December 31 in the same year. Because children born earlier in the year are bigger and more mature than their younger competitors, and they are often identified as better athletes, this leads to to extra coaching and a higher likelihood of being selected for elite hockey leagues. This phenomenon in which "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer" is dubbed "accumulative advantage" by Gladwell, while sociologist Robert K. Merton calls it "the Matthew Effect", named after a biblical verse in the Gospel of Matthew: "For unto everyone that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance. But from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath."[7] Outliers asserts that success depends on the idiosyncrasies of the selection process used to identify talent just as much as it does on the athletes' natural abilities.[7]

We have the same underage criteria but I have never seen data for senior County players. Must be a dissertation in that for someone.

[snoopdog]

On Saturday I was talking to an Armagh Minor's coach, He said "Down could win if they keep their discipline but they probably won't. Down are well known for losing discipline under-pressure. All county managers know that and look to exploit it. It was something that was talked about before the game last year (Armagh first-round)"......

Agree with all of this, we were like an under 12 team in the last 20 mins with every player running after the ball, hard to watch.  We lack on field leaders other than Ambrose who can see these things happening.

I also agree with most of this but if this occurs then surely it is the managements fault? how can they not control the palyers on the pitch. Jim McGuinness doesnt have an issue with his players not following his methods. Where would defeat on saturday leave this management team? i would assume it would be the end.

Snoopdog, firstly lets not talk about defeat on Saturday. Let's talk about beating a third division side who have only had to beat Offaly, Wexford and Antrim to get here.

As for the management controlling the players. The management can plan and prepare the players. They can tell them exactly what they want them to do. They can give the clearest instructions in the world. But the management are not out on the pitch. What is your theory exactly how CAN they control the players once they are on the pitch - that is precisely the one time they are not in control. After all the preparation is done it is up to the players to be disciplined enough to stick to the game plan. You ask why McGuinness has not got this problem, the answer is because of the players. They have chosen to keep their discipline and to stick to the plan. They stick to it even when things are looking bad. It is down to the players only.

You could see on Sunday the management had clearly sent the team out with instructions and had prepared a system to play the game. For the first half it worked excellently. But in the second half the team went ragged. You can hardly say anyone told them to do that? They did not need Rooney, Garvey or even Hughes, the players lined out were good enough as shown for the first half. Team selection is a minor issue for us. The major issue is having 15 players on the field who collectively agree to play to one system, who concentrate for 70 minutes, and who work together to follow the instructions given to them. Otherwise you could bring back Marty, Caolan, McComiskey, or whoever you like and we would still lose.

i suppose what i am trying to say is if the team is given a system and a plan by the management team then surely a disciplined team will stick to that system??

I will be in Mullingar on saturday to cheer on Down and yes wee James management team has got Down back to better days, i suppose 2010 showed us what could be achieved but they havent got near that standard since, obvioulsy we havent had that full 15 on a pitch since but these heavy defeats to Cork 4 times since the All Ireland final now Donegal, how can they not have learned from that?

[snoopdog]

On Saturday I was talking to an Armagh Minor's coach, He said "Down could win if they keep their discipline but they probably won't. Down are well known for losing discipline under-pressure. All county managers know that and look to exploit it. It was something that was talked about before the game last year (Armagh first-round)"

Yes I agree there were some panic substitutions on Sunday and the sideline choices did not help. But I really think the management can not be blamed. They clearly sent the team out with a plan which was to hold Donegal, Prevent attacks and space. In possession there was two tactics. If it is turnover ball inside our 45 then the strategy was to hit fast ball to Coulter and Laverty. If it was break ball around midfield then the strategy was to run at the Donegal defence laying the ball off before the challenge to gain territory. To push Donegal right back and to create a line of red around the scoring zone.

This worked well in the first half and if we had stuck to it then it would have kept us in the game right to the end. But the team went ragged. When the second goal went in and Donegal had their tails up Down should have put 13 men behind the ball, filled the space and totally prevented scores. We would certainly have got turn overs and some of these would have created chances to claw back the deficit. Instead we went ragged with everyone (McKernan in particular) running anywhere and leaving gaps all over the place. Suddenly everyone wanted to attack and just like Cork last year we left gaping holes to be exploited and allowed the opposition to humiliate us

Agree with all of this, we were like an under 12 team in the last 20 mins with every player running after the ball, hard to watch.  We lack on field leaders other than Ambrose who can see these things happening.

I also agree with most of this but if this occurs then surely it is the managements fault? how can they not control the palyers on the pitch. Jim McGuinness doesnt have an issue with his players not following his methods. Where would defeat on saturday leave this management team? i would assume it would be the end.

Snoop whilst we all would be very disappointed with how Sunday turned out we need to get a bit of perspective. This will be the third year in a row that we have at least reached the last 12, something we couldn't have dreamed of under the previous regime. We have also had 2 very respectable campaigns in division 1, again something we couldn't have dreamed of under the previous regime.

Whilst I'm am slightly disillusioned by Aidan orourkes role and would love to still have some of the previous selectors on board, I can see James getting at least another year given his record over the last 3 years no matter what happens on saturday. I do believe we will win on Saturday though.

Anyway who would u suggest take over?

Peter McGrath - no thanks
Frank Dawson - no thanks

I do think we will beat Tipp on Saturday, but if we didnt wherewould they go from here??
didnt Wee James say after the Monaghan game that if Down had lost that it may have been the end of the road for the management team?

[alba2]

If you want to watch athletes, then the Olympics is the place for you, i would prefer to see Footballers in Croker. To even talk about strength development for underage players is absolutely ludicrous.

Tyrone do it and are reaping the rewards... If it is good enough for them - it is good enough for us i feel.  Also the reason why the development squads dont work in this county is that club managers and mentors tell their players not to attend them.  They want their players for themselves and noone else.  I know in my own club they are actively against the development squads and encourage the players not to attend and have even gone so far as organising training at the exact time on a sat the development squads train.  I was at a recent training session up in mid ulster sports arena and they took the Tyrone u15 squad in to work with. Oh my god - 54 players all kitted out in tyrone gear with bags and everything.  The players were put through their paces by the various coaches in attendance.  when they were done with us they were taken to the hall in the arena and put through a schedule of body weight exercises - pressups, situps, chinups etc and this lasted a further 50 mins.  This indoor session was taken by Ryan Mellon - coaching officer and Conor Gormley - current player and coaching officer.  There were no questions asked by the players nor parents who dropped them off and came to pick them up.  Whilst the lads were awaiting their lift i asked a few of them what they thought of the development squad - the answer i got 90% of the time was - i love it and this is what i have to do to get to play for Tyrone seniors - so i will do what ever it takes.  In Down - we do not get that level simply because the interest aint there, it aint pushed by the clubs, some clubs send players because they are such and such wee lad and he is a good man about the club - the wee lad aint up to standard - there are millions of reasons why it dont work.  Our county players need to take a more active role with these squads to tell the young lads what to expect at senior level and prepare them for that.  the players we have acting as coaches in primary schools and indeed with cul camps show no enthusiasm for their job and indeed at the first cul camp of the year were not involved with the youngsters at all.  this is a disgrace - why are the gaa paying them and they dont do thier job.

[thewobbler]

The problem with development squads is inherent in itself.

If a youngster is actually good enough to deserve a place in a development squad, he's probably playing/training at two juvenile age groups and two school age groups already (before soccer, rugby, golf, whatever). He's already getting coached until it's coming out of his ears, and it's most likely coaching in at least two different directions.

Yes Tyrone have got coaching systems coming out of their ears. But all that interest and money arrived on the crest of  the 2003-2008 success, and while Tyrone undoubtedly have the best prepared juvenile teams in the history of the game, there's been little evidence (so far) that it's delivering the players they need to compete at the highest level of senior football. Their record since 2008 at senior level has been no better than Down's.

You can coach til you're blue in the face, but it takes a few moons to align to produce a vintage of McGuigan, Gormley, O'Neill, Cavanagh, McAnallen, Mulligan, Jordan and McMenamin.

I've no doubt someone will now bring up the Crossmaglen blueprint. Well, ponder this. The Crossmaglen team of the mid nineties was built on size, the team of the mid 2000s was based around power, the current crop is based around mobility. Your man Gregory might be a brilliant underage coach, and might engender an amazing desire in those he coaches, but the tactics, systems and styles of Crossmaglen seniors in the past 20 years are not something that's taught at juvenile level. If it's not tactical appreciation, I cannot for the life of me see what a development squad can do for an under-14 player that their school teachers will not.

[DownFanatic]

If you want to watch athletes, then the Olympics is the place for you, i would prefer to see Footballers in Croker. To even talk about strength development for underage players is absolutely ludicrous.

It is far from ludicrous.

As I said Down do produce fine footballers. However, we falter when we are faced with physical challenges. Strength and conditioning aligned to our football ethos would reap dividends.

[alba2]

The problem with development squads is inherent in itself.

If a youngster is actually good enough to deserve a place in a development squad, he's probably playing/training at two juvenile age groups and two school age groups already (before soccer, rugby, golf, whatever). He's already getting coached until it's coming out of his ears, and it's most likely coaching in at least two different directions.

Yes Tyrone have got coaching systems coming out of their ears. But all that interest and money arrived on the crest of  the 2003-2008 success, and while Tyrone undoubtedly have the best prepared juvenile teams in the history of the game, there's been little evidence (so far) that it's delivering the players they need to compete at the highest level of senior football. Their record since 2008 at senior level has been no better than Down's.

You can coach til you're blue in the face, but it takes a few moons to align to produce a vintage of McGuigan, Gormley, O'Neill, Cavanagh, McAnallen, Mulligan, Jordan and McMenamin.

I've no doubt someone will now bring up the Crossmaglen blueprint. Well, ponder this. The Crossmaglen team of the mid nineties was built on size, the team of the mid 2000s was based around power, the current crop is based around mobility. Your man Gregory might be a brilliant underage coach, and might engender an amazing desire in those he coaches, but the tactics, systems and styles of Crossmaglen seniors in the past 20 years are not something that's taught at juvenile level. If it's not tactical appreciation, I cannot for the life of me see what a development squad can do for an under-14 player that their school teachers will not.

Well we won quite a bit in the ninities - there was money out there and where has it gone? We are miles behind other counties without so much as a training centre or centre of excellence for players to develop.  Who are these teachers that get so much from their players.  It seems that when the abbey, violet hill and downpatrick schools are not doing well in the colleges competitions - noone else gets mentioned.  St louis got some paper talk when they appeared in two finals but now there is no word of them anymore.  That man Gregory you mention up in cross has no more control over teams than the man on the moon.  We played them in challenge games and they always end up in a row caus he has no control over his feens.  their underage blueprint is nothing til do with their senior one.  Seniors is a whole different ball game up there and if they get one or two players each year they are happy enough with that.  Clubs here cant afford to do that - unless you are burren or kilcoo that is.

[T O Hare]

If you want to watch athletes, then the Olympics is the place for you, i would prefer to see Footballers in Croker. To even talk about strength development for underage players is absolutely ludicrous.

Tyrone do it and are reaping the rewards... If it is good enough for them - it is good enough for us i feel.  Also the reason why the development squads dont work in this county is that club managers and mentors tell their players not to attend them.  They want their players for themselves and noone else.  I know in my own club they are actively against the development squads and encourage the players not to attend and have even gone so far as organising training at the exact time on a sat the development squads train.  I was at a recent training session up in mid ulster sports arena and they took the Tyrone u15 squad in to work with. Oh my god - 54 players all kitted out in tyrone gear with bags and everything.  The players were put through their paces by the various coaches in attendance.  when they were done with us they were taken to the hall in the arena and put through a schedule of body weight exercises - pressups, situps, chinups etc and this lasted a further 50 mins.  This indoor session was taken by Ryan Mellon - coaching officer and Conor Gormley - current player and coaching officer.  There were no questions asked by the players nor parents who dropped them off and came to pick them up.  Whilst the lads were awaiting their lift i asked a few of them what they thought of the development squad - the answer i got 90% of the time was - i love it and this is what i have to do to get to play for Tyrone seniors - so i will do what ever it takes.  In Down - we do not get that level simply because the interest aint there, it aint pushed by the clubs, some clubs send players because they are such and such wee lad and he is a good man about the club - the wee lad aint up to standard - there are millions of reasons why it dont work.  Our county players need to take a more active role with these squads to tell the young lads what to expect at senior level and prepare them for that.  the players we have acting as coaches in primary schools and indeed with cul camps show no enthusiasm for their job and indeed at the first cul camp of the year were not involved with the youngsters at all.  this is a disgrace - why are the gaa paying them and they dont do thier job.

I feel your being very hard on the county players and GAA coaches. I was at the Bridge cul camp and they coaching the kids got was first class and I feel we are privileged to have this in the county. They promote our games and coach on a limited timescale and even players such as Benny, Dan McCarten and Conor Laverty all coached The Bridge, Burren and Kilcoo primary school teams this year due to the lack of male teachers in the schools.
I feel that some secondary schools are not putting in as much effort as others. St Colmans , St Columbans , St Louis and St Malachys are all doing sterling work but the likes of Downpatrick , St Josephs and the Abbey  could be doing better. I remember playing Downpatrick at McRory level and this is were they should be at a regular basis.Also St Marks also are not as dominant since Barney McAleenan retired and the kids don't seem to have the same skill levels!