Down Club Hurling & Football

[Square Ball]

Ardtole, are you suggesting that the county board are redoing the leagues to get Bredagh into Div 3? Of course I am upset, as is the entire club that we diddnt get up and this will make us more determined to get out of Div 4 next year.
I agree that the league tables dont lie, and I think I posted something to that fact a while ago. we are where we are due to not getting enough points, then being defeated in the play offs.
I would like to be able to play more competitive games week in and week out, not just about 6 per year, that doesnt improve you as a team.

[ardtole]

No I am not suggesting that. Im saying that you support the new proposals because it will benefit you most, which is only natural. However, I think the leagues are fine the way they are and should be left untouched. My own club could well be in your position next year and if we are relegated to div 4 il accept that. Hopefully it won't come to that though.

[6th sam]

Mayobridge is the only club in Down to have come from div 4 to div 1,in living memory

Maybe not division 4, but you'd have found Kilcoo, Saval, Ballyholland, Longstone, An Riocht, Liatroim all languishing in lower league football 20 odd years ago. Along with Mayobridge, they're now all SFC staples.

The county board doesn't decide a club's position 6th Sam. The attitude, resolve and persistence of its members do this.

Good point,Wobbler.However,I think An riocht were never lower than div 2.Longstone,Liatroim,and Kilcoo havent been in div 2 in ~20 years,Ballyholland and Saval 10 years+.Even then, all these clubs were ambitious and in the higher echelons of Div 3.I think only Longstone were ever in Div 4,and that was 30+ years ago.
Some of these clubs have also benefitted from transfers in from less successful neighbours,and good luck to them,but my main reason for supporting a 3 tier system,is that every club in the county,and particularly their players, have an achievable opportunity to play at higher standard ,if they have the ambition to do so.This potentially decreases the likelihood that county stars of the future are lost in the lower division,and/or feel compelled to join a more successful club.I reiterate that as an ambitious county,we can't afford to continue to write off potential county players in lower league clubs,while our more successful rivals (eg Dublin,Cork,Kerry,Tyrone) are picking from a wider pool of clubs.In the absence of any other proposals to rectify this,I am happy to support the county boards proposals,which may help.The county board proposals have even more credibility,as they have a vested interest in helping ALL clubs.And at the risk of being repetive,if it doesn't work out,we can easily revert to the current system.

I would ask posters to ponder on this scenario:
A talented player  with the skill,athletic ability and attitude to be a county player,lives in the catchment area of a Div 4 club.He does well at underage,and gets on county development squads etc.He wins schools medals,but leaves school at 16.His club floats between Div 3 and 4,over the years,and he works his way onto the county squad.He doesn't make the breakthrough,and many outside his club are telling him he needs to switch to a more successful club,if he wants reach his potential.His club gets relegated to division 4.He has a dilemma,does he jeopardise his county career,by playing div 4,or does he seek a transfer,with all the implications of that?
My argument is that if there are 3 divisions,this player is given a better opportunity to reach their potential IN THEIR OWN CLUB.

When I was playing/coaching, our club had the attitude,resolve and persistence to go from the bottom of Div 4 to Div 2,but it took 6 years,that's too long for any potential county player to be languishing in the lower division playing a lower standard of football.We owe this opportunity not so much to lower division clubs,but more particularly to potential county players in the lower leagues.In the absence of a better alternative,we MUST take this opportunity.

[DownFanatic]

Mayobridge is the only club in Down to have come from div 4 to div 1,in living memory

Maybe not division 4, but you'd have found Kilcoo, Saval, Ballyholland, Longstone, An Riocht, Liatroim all languishing in lower league football 20 odd years ago. Along with Mayobridge, they're now all SFC staples.

The county board doesn't decide a club's position 6th Sam. The attitude, resolve and persistence of its members do this.

Good point,Wobbler.However,I think An riocht were never lower than div 2.Longstone,Liatroim,and Kilcoo havent been in div 2 in ~20 years,Ballyholland and Saval 10 years+.Even then, all these clubs were ambitious and in the higher echelons of Div 3.I think only Longstone were ever in Div 4,and that was 30+ years ago.
Some of these clubs have also benefitted from transfers in from less successful neighbours,and good luck to them,but my main reason for supporting a 3 tier system,is that every club in the county,and particularly their players, have an achievable opportunity to play at higher standard ,if they have the ambition to do so.This potentially decreases the likelihood that county stars of the future are lost in the lower division,and/or feel compelled to join a more successful club.I reiterate that as an ambitious county,we can't afford to continue to write off potential county players in lower league clubs,while our more successful rivals (eg Dublin,Cork,Kerry,Tyrone) are picking from a wider pool of clubs.In the absence of any other proposals to rectify this,I am happy to support the county boards proposals,which may help.The county board proposals have even more credibility,as they have a vested interest in helping ALL clubs.And at the risk of being repetive,if it doesn't work out,we can easily revert to the current system.

I would ask posters to ponder on this scenario:
A talented player  with the skill,athletic ability and attitude to be a county player,lives in the catchment area of a Div 4 club.He does well at underage,and gets on county development squads etc.He wins schools medals,but leaves school at 16.His club floats between Div 3 and 4,over the years,and he works his way onto the county squad.He doesn't make the breakthrough,and many outside his club are telling him he needs to switch to a more successful club,if he wants reach his potential.His club gets relegated to division 4.He has a dilemma,does he jeopardise his county career,by playing div 4,or does he seek a transfer,with all the implications of that?
My argument is that if there are 3 divisions,this player is given a better opportunity to reach their potential IN THEIR OWN CLUB.

When I was playing our club had the attitude,resolve and persistence to go from the bottom of Div 4 to Div 2,but it took 6 years,that's too long for any potential county player to be languishing in the lower division playing a lower standard of football.We owe this opportunity not so much to lower division clubs,but more particularly to potential county players in the lower leagues.In the absence of a better alternative,we MUST take this opportunity.

Lad, Ive made the following point numerous times in the past regarding potential county Senior players in the lower echelons. There are very few of them and the ones that are stand out like sore thumbs.

Paul McComiskey is the best player in the bottom two Divisions. Whilst playing with a Division 4 club at the time he top scored in an All Ireland Minor Final in 2005 with 1-03. He won a Sigerson medal, hit 0-04 in an All Ireland U-21 Final and then posted 0-03 in an All Senior Final. He's been a staple of the county Senior side since he was 19.

Having 3 Divisions is not going to unearth some unheralded superstar. A lot of players in Division 3 and 4 have been given their chance in the past especially under Ross Carr but they haven't been able to make an impact. Kevin Anderson, John McAreavey, Declan Alder and Michael Magee all come to mind.

To say we are writing off our counties chances by not picking players from lower clubs is a complete load of shite. Bar McComiskey, players that are going to make a sizeable impact on the county scene from Division 3 and 4 clubs don't exist.

[QUB GAA Research]

Hi Everyone,

I am a final year student at QUB, and as part of my course I am required to undertake a group piece of research.
We have chosen to do this on the GAA, and the different reasons on player drop-our rates post age 18 between rural and urban areas.

We would be very greatfull if you could take the time to fill out the survey below (it will literally only take 2 minutes).

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Q8FYCHK

We've got some great feedback so far, and I think the users on this message board can add valuable contributions to the study.
Please feel free to comment/make sussestions on our thread (below) or on the survey about the topic.

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=20675.msg1048613#new

Thanks Very much!
Go raibh mile maith agat

[6th sam]

Lad, Ive made the following point numerous times in the past regarding potential county Senior players in the lower echelons. There are very few of them and the ones that are stand out like sore thumbs.  AGREED

Paul McComiskey is the best player in the bottom two Divisions.AGREED Whilst playing with a Division 4 club at the time he top scored in an All Ireland Minor Final in 2005 with 1-03. He won a Sigerson medal, hit 0-04 in an All Ireland U-21 Final and then posted 0-03 in an All Senior Final. He's been a staple of the county Senior side since he was 19.AGREED,THOUGH HE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY OF SIGERSON TRAINING,WHEN LAST IN DIV 4.PAUL IS AN OUTSTANDING PLAYER WHO EMERGED THANKS TO NATURAL ABILITY,SUPERB ATTITUDE AND GREAT COACHING VIA SCHOOL,COUNTY AND THE ST JOSEPHS YOUTH TEAMS.

Having 3 Divisions is not going to unearth some unheralded superstar. A lot of players in Division 3 and 4 have been given their chance in the past especially under Ross Carr but they haven't been able to make an impact. Kevin Anderson, John McAreavey, Declan Alder and Michael Magee all come to mind.WHO'S TO SAY THAT THESE LADS WOULDNT HAVE DEVELOPED IF THEY HAD BEEN PLAYING DIV 3,PUSHING ON TO DIV 2 IN THEIR FORMATIVE YEARS(WITH THE OBVIOUS EXCEPTION OF THE EXCELLENT ALDER,A COUNTY STANDARD KEEPER,WHO HAS TO COMPETE FOR A SINGLE POSITION,AGAINST AN ALL STAR)

To say we are writing off our counties chances by not picking players from lower clubs is a complete load of shite. Bar McComiskey, players that are going to make a sizeable impact on the county scene from Division 3 and 4 clubs don't exist.WHY DO THEY EXIST IN OTHER TOP COUNTIES?
I AM NOT SUGGESTING THAT THIS YEAR,JAMES SHOULD GO LOOKING FOR PLAYERS IN DIV 3,4,BECAUSE I FEEL THAT COUNTY MANAGEMENT HAVE TRAWLED THE COUNTY ALREADY.BUT I WOULD LIKE DOWN TO BE IN A POSITION OVER THE NEXT FEW YEARS WHERE MORE COUNTY PLAYERS EMERGE FROM WEAKER CLUBS,TO WIDEN THE SELECTION POOL-AS HAPPENS ALL THE TIME IN KERRY
I FEEL THIS CHANGE WILL ONLY SEE BENEFIT IN THE LONG TERM.

[ardtole]

Its ironic that on the tyrone pages they are arguing for a change from 3 divisions to 4, arguing that there are too many meaningless end of season games, a large number of 1 sided games etc. The grass is always greener.

[Ed Hardy]

I think the ideaa of these changes are utter rubbish.. I play for a div 4 club and we are there for a reason, we are simply not good enough for div 3. What enjoyment would there be for players after taking some heavy beatings from some of the bigger clubs in Div 3. 

[6th sam]

Its ironic that on the tyrone pages they are arguing for a change from 3 divisions to 4, arguing that there are too many meaningless end of season games, a large number of 1 sided games etc. The grass is always greener.

Great,a bit of genuine evidenced based comment,re the experience in the Tyrone leagues.
I think the same would happen in Down if we went to 3 conventional  leagues,and to be fair the 2nd round of games in div 4 this year resulted in a number of one sided ,or not-played games late in the season.However,as highlighted earlier, having a midseason split,means that  lower league clubs would actually only end up with at most  1 or 2 more games against higher standard opposition,but more importantly will be revitalised by the prospect of end of season games against similar standard opposition.If they receive a heavy defeat,at least they know they won't have to face that opposition again that year.
Embracing this concept takes some imagination,but I feel we owe this opportunity to Div 4 players.
Our club is arguably one of only 2 clubs in Down this year,who are disadvantaged by this concept,but having discussed it,we are prepared to accept it for the greater good of Down football.

In any given county there are a limited amount of footballers with the natural,elite athleticism to become top county players.This natural elite athletic ability  knows no geographical boundaries (ie this natural athleticism is as likely to arise in Ballykinlar as Burren) We already write off ~75% of our county's population ,as they are not interested in GAA.Can we afford to write off 50% of the remainder.

Another scenario:
A quality youth player emerges in the catchment area of X......GAC.He plays soccer for Ballynagross as well as gaelic.
Watch his career path.In soccer he has the opportunity to  transfer from Ballynagross to the higher grade Lisburn League,there he may be spotted by Celtic,and secure another transfer to play for them,make Celtic first team,and then seek international honours.In other words,throughout his career he has  the opportunity to progress through higher standard clubs,to achieve his potential.
Meanwhile in gaelic he remains playing with X..... GAC.He is a talented player who lives in X.... and has no grounds to transfer elsewhere.He is county standard and makes county development squads.He prefers gaelic,and decides that his club colleagues don't match his ambition,and won't train.He requests a transfer to Y....GAC.to play a higher standard of football,but X....GAC won't sign his transfer as he lives in their parish.His uncle Johnny is disgusted with him for his lack of loyalty to the family club.He decides to give up Gaelic and concentrate on developing his soccer career.

In soccer he is allowed to develop his potential, as he has freedom of movement through higher standard clubs.In GAA he can not move without valid reason(and rightly so),so he is totally dependent on the resources,ambition,and organisation of his  home club.This bold move by the county board means that any club in Down,can have realistic ambitions to play SFC,and  allow potential county players to develop in their own club,because if any club in Down gets their act together,they are only 2 seasons away from SFC football

[John Martin]

All clubs can play SFC football in two seasons as it is.

Which club are you from 6th Sam? Just wondering who you think the 2 clubs are that disadvantaged by these proposals.

[alba2]

What was the Down line up for the game against Armagh last night?? How did they perform and what was the score??

[stiff breeze]

the new propasals are nonsense, they will not aide down football in any way. If they go ahead there will be so many more non event games at the end of the season as there is no relegation and also it will leave it that teams at the top will benefit playing teams at the bottom later in the season so the fixture layout will majorly benifit some promotion chasing teams . Also if a div 4 team is good enough they will get to div 3 in 2 years which is possible under the current format. I predict alot of the east down teams going for this proposal as it will benifit them as that league will be easier if its geographically based.

[6th sam]

the new propasals are nonsense, they will not aide down football in any way. If they go ahead there will be so many more non event games at the end of the season as there is no relegation and also it will leave it that teams at the top will benefit playing teams at the bottom later in the season so the fixture layout will majorly benifit some promotion chasing teams . Also if a div 4 team is good enough they will get to div 3 in 2 years which is possible under the current format. I predict alot of the east down teams going for this proposal as it will benifit them as that league will be easier if its geographically based.

First of all ,I would imagine that the leagues will be seeded on current league position,and then consider convenient geographical location.There was no proposal to go East and South Down.Div 4 and Div 3 this year both had a number of non-played or "dead rubber" games.None of these occurred in the first half of the season.
If the league is split after 1 round of fixtures,then every team in Div 3 will have end of season games against roughly equal standard opposition.This will test the top teams,and prepare them for Div 2,and give the bottom teams something to fight for at the end of season.The extra incentive for all teams,could be that final league position,will determine seeding for 2013,league and championship.Therefore every team is likely to play the full season out-which didn't occur this year.

I imagine,that the goals of the county board are to revitalise football in both lower leagues,particularly for those at the bottom of Div 4.And also to try to ensure ambitious,potential county footballers are given a better opportunity to develop  IN THEIR OWN CLUB,and perhaps eventually see more county players emerge from lower league clubs(as happens in other counties).In the absence of any better proposals,to achieve those  goals,I feel clubs should back these proposals for the good of Down football

[6th sam]

I think the ideaa of these changes are utter rubbish.. I play for a div 4 club and we are there for a reason, we are simply not good enough for div 3. What enjoyment would there be for players after taking some heavy beatings from some of the bigger clubs in Div 3.

I would argue that in this year's Div 4,3 clubs were of comparable to Div 3 standard(if you look at Drumaness,Saul and Bredagh's results over the past two years). Your club St Michaels,therefore had to play 6 games against Div 3 standard teams,and probably didn't look forward to the return fixture in the 2nd round.
In the new system,you would have only 7 or 8 games versus Div 3 standard opposition in the first round of the league.Then say you finish 9th,the remainder of the season is played out with 1 round of fixtures,against the bottom 8 teams for the Div 3B title.This makes every game in the season meaningful,not like this year,with a number of unplayed games in both Divisions.

[fairplay]

the new propasals are nonsense, they will not aide down football in any way. If they go ahead there will be so many more non event games at the end of the season as there is no relegation and also it will leave it that teams at the top will benefit playing teams at the bottom later in the season so the fixture layout will majorly benifit some promotion chasing teams . Also if a div 4 team is good enough they will get to div 3 in 2 years which is possible under the current format. I predict alot of the east down teams going for this proposal as it will benifit them as that league will be easier if its geographically based.

First of all ,I would imagine that the leagues will be seeded on current league position,and then consider convenient geographical location.There was no proposal to go East and South Down.Div 4 and Div 3 this year both had a number of non-played or "dead rubber" games.None of these occurred in the first half of the season.
If the league is split after 1 round of fixtures,then every team in Div 3 will have end of season games against roughly equal standard opposition.This will test the top teams,and prepare them for Div 2,and give the bottom teams something to fight for at the end of season.The extra incentive for all teams,is that final league position,will determine seeding for 2013,league and championship.Therefore every team is likely to play the full season out-which didn't occur this year.

I imagine,that the goals of the county board are to revitalise football in both lower leagues,particularly for those at the bottom of Div 4.And also to try to ensure ambitious,potential county footballers are given a better opportunity to develop  IN THEIR OWN CLUB,and perhaps eventually see more county players emerge from lower league clubs(as happens in other counties).In the absence of any better proposals,to achieve those  goals,I feel clubs should back these proposals for the good of Down football

6thSam,
    will you be attending the County Board yourself as you have made some great points which if put forward to the delegates will surely win over the doubters?