Maigh Eo v Gaillimh, 2pm, 13ú Iúil, Pairc Mhic Eil

[moysider]

If Horan had played Caff on Murphy, the same fellas would be on here lamenting how he failed to learned the lessons of Ballyshannon....

Caff played on him for the 60 mins after the two goals.

Not sure what you mean? I meant that if Caff had started on Murphy and conceded two goals, he would have been getting the same grief for that decision.

Any chance we can move on from the last 2 All Irelands and look to the next game??

Will there be any changes from the last game?? Anyone fit to challenge? Gibbons? Barrett? B Moran? Parsons??

Difficult to know what he can do. Does he persist with the 2 youngsters in the hf line? McLoughlin in the corner again?
If they are dropped will their confidence take a hit. I thought it a strange decision to start both the last day and now I think he s given himself a problem because it was not a roaring success.
I still can t imaging how anybody would play McLoughlin inside and Doherty on the wing either. I can t see any shape or sense in that. The reality is God knows how the team will emerge from 8-15. It would appear that only the older Bears and McLoughlin are certain to start.

[Crete Boom]

I'm constantly astounded by the criticism Horan gets, he gets a lot more right than he gets wrong. A manager will always make the odd wrong decision, he hasn't made too many in the last few years.
He's not going to get everything right. No manager gets every big decision right.

I don't think any other manager in the country would have taken that set of players to 2 finals, he comfortably has the worst set of forwards amongst one of the so called elite teams, there's a number of those forwards who'd struggle to make the starting 15 amongst division 4 teams.

Would any Mayo forwards even make the galway junior team?
Would any Mayo forward from the last 25 years even make the current Galway matchday 26???

To be fair the comparison that Maroon Manc made was with the top tier elite teams, clearly Galway aren't in this bracket so I'd save the indignation.

To be fair to me he could have said Mayo's front 6 are the weakest out of the top three or four teams and pointed to the fact they got no all star or only Andy Moran scored from play after halftime in the final last year. Hence the reason I gave a childish response to his fairly childish comment that they would struggle to make most division four teams!!

I do agree that the thrust of his argument is right and Horan has had to work with forwards that have struggled to become a cohesive attacking unit but some would argue that Horan has sacrificed the more talented forwards in they county for lads of greater commitment and work rate.

There is trade off either way you look at it and one Mayo have to overcome to be taken as a serious threat to anyone who sees themselves as a top dog ( Dublin) or an aspiring top dog ( Donegal/Cork/Monaghan/Kerry/Meath/Galway).

N.B. I will insert plenty of smiley faces next time I am being childish!!!

[Mayo4Sam]

Moysider I can't believe you're suggesting that because JH doesn't manage Man united he shouldn't do it right. Fair enough he can't bring in another big name but he's built his squad on discipline so either you stand by that or you don't.

The story I heard was that RF took one bottle of beer at a wedding in the run up to the AIF.
So either you say "ah it's only one bottle of beer" or like JH you say there was a rule for everyone and you broke it. You knew it was there and you chose to break it. No one else but RF

[macdanger2]

If Horan had played Caff on Murphy, the same fellas would be on here lamenting how he failed to learned the lessons of Ballyshannon....

Caff played on him for the 60 mins after the two goals.

Not sure what you mean? I meant that if Caff had started on Murphy and conceded two goals, he would have been getting the same grief for that decision.

Any chance we can move on from the last 2 All Irelands and look to the next game??

Will there be any changes from the last game?? Anyone fit to challenge? Gibbons? Barrett? B Moran? Parsons??

Difficult to know what he can do. Does he persist with the 2 youngsters in the hf line? McLoughlin in the corner again?
If they are dropped will their confidence take a hit. I thought it a strange decision to start both the last day and now I think he s given himself a problem because it was not a roaring success.
I still can t imaging how anybody would play McLoughlin inside and Doherty on the wing either. I can t see any shape or sense in that. The reality is God knows how the team will emerge from 8-15. It would appear that only the older Bears and McLoughlin are certain to start.

I'd say diarmuid o'c will start, probably not c o'se though. Could diarmuid play as an inside forward??

[muppet]

Moysider I can't believe you're suggesting that because JH doesn't manage Man united he shouldn't do it right. Fair enough he can't bring in another big name but he's built his squad on discipline so either you stand by that or you don't.

The story I heard was that RF took one bottle of beer at a wedding in the run up to the AIF.
So either you say "ah it's only one bottle of beer" or like JH you say there was a rule for everyone and you broke it. You knew it was there and you chose to break it. No one else but RF

And was your source that reliable that you would publish this story on the internet without fear?

[Lar Naparka]

I'm constantly astounded by the criticism Horan gets, he gets a lot more right than he gets wrong. A manager will always make the odd wrong decision, he hasn't made too many in the last few years.
He's not going to get everything right. No manager gets every big decision right.

I don't think any other manager in the country would have taken that set of players to 2 finals, he comfortably has the worst set of forwards amongst one of the so called elite teams, there's a number of those forwards who'd struggle to make the starting 15 amongst division 4 teams.

Ok I'll Suarez then..

Andy Moran, Alan Freeman, Cillian O'Connor, Alan Dillon, Jason Doherty, Kevin McLaughlin would probably be the 6 starters when fit. Which of them wouldn't make the 'starting 15 amongst division 4 teams'?

Doherty and Freeman are very average county players to date, they may go on to prove me wrong but I doubt that.

Andy Moran is nowhere near the player he was, I was a huge admirer of him prior to his injury, he was consistently one of Mayo's best performers for several years but the injury has slowed him down, what pace he did possess has disappeared, he's still very accurate when he finds space but is never going to win a contested ball.

I can't remember what Dillons first 2 final performances were like but I know his last 2 have been appalling. Now I'm suggesting I should base an opinion on him based on 2 performances but his best years are likely behind him.

Have to agree with all that.
I thought Doherty had a fairly satisfactory game the last day given the weather  conditions and I think he has the capacity to improve.  Freeman is a total enigma. He has had good days in a Mayo jersey but he's also had more than his fair share of games where he has been totally ineffective.
In the last Roscommon game, if my memory serves me right, he failed to show for a pass or make any effort to contest dirty ball during the entire second half.He was beaten for possession twice in the first two minutes and thereafter he was anonymous until he was taken off.
I honestly think that if Andy hadn't done his cruciate in back in 2012 in the QF against Down, Mayo would have at least one AI by now.
He's never recovered the form he had then but I think he's far too valuable to the side to be left off.
To put it simply; if the style of play doesn't suit Andy, then change the tactics, not the captain.
I'm serious about that btw.
I think Alan Dillon  carried injuries into the last two AIs so some allowances have to be made for that. I'm afraid he didn't play well in '06 or '04 either but then neither did anyone else on those occasions either.

[moysider]

I'm constantly astounded by the criticism Horan gets, he gets a lot more right than he gets wrong. A manager will always make the odd wrong decision, he hasn't made too many in the last few years.
He's not going to get everything right. No manager gets every big decision right.

I don't think any other manager in the country would have taken that set of players to 2 finals, he comfortably has the worst set of forwards amongst one of the so called elite teams, there's a number of those forwards who'd struggle to make the starting 15 amongst division 4 teams.

Would any Mayo forwards even make the galway junior team?
Would any Mayo forward from the last 25 years even make the current Galway matchday 26???

To be fair the comparison that Maroon Manc made was with the top tier elite teams, clearly Galway aren't in this bracket so I'd save the indignation.

No it wasn t. He was comparing Mayo to Div.4 teams. The tone of his post was very patronising. Basically telling us that we re lucky to be as good as we are with what we have and that JH has done extremely well to get anywhere with this set of players.

The indignation of outsiders when we used criticise Johnno was the same. How dare they find fault with the great man. If Mayo couldn t win with the great Johnno then they must be brutal altogether. While he was driving Mayo football back years Eugene McGee still annointed him as being the best manager of them all.

JH reminds me of John Maughan in many ways. Got most of the job really well done and brought a broken bunch of players close to the summit. However a couple of decisions cost him/us dearly. And they were bloody obvious things too not opportunist revisionism after the fact. Things like the Fallon omission in 96, not trying to mark Maurice Fitz properly in 97 and leaving a hole at 11 when Colm Mac was roving ( this went on for years). It s a shame to get so much difficult stuff right ( fitness/ conditioning/ defending/ support play/ hunger/ discipline/ morale/team spirit) and blow it on easy stuff. Basic house keeping really.

God help me for suggesting Horan is an outstanding manager. But when you're relying on the likes of Freeman, Varley, Conroy, Doherty and Moran who's well passed his best to win an All Ireland it's going to be a struggle.

Horan has chosen to rely on those. There were options as those more familiar with the county know. That s the point that some of us are sympathetically trying to make without hanging players publicly out to dry ( I wouldn t quite agree either with that list) and with respect too for a manager to choose to do the job how he sees fit.

[macdanger2]

I agree about freeman not showing well in the last game but he did take a knock in the warmup which might offer some sort of excuse.

Still not sure Andy is a starter, despite him winning the game for us the last day. On the other hand, if nobody else puts their hand up, there's probably not much choice

[Maroon Manc]

I'm constantly astounded by the criticism Horan gets, he gets a lot more right than he gets wrong. A manager will always make the odd wrong decision, he hasn't made too many in the last few years.
He's not going to get everything right. No manager gets every big decision right.

I don't think any other manager in the country would have taken that set of players to 2 finals, he comfortably has the worst set of forwards amongst one of the so called elite teams, there's a number of those forwards who'd struggle to make the starting 15 amongst division 4 teams.

Would any Mayo forwards even make the galway junior team?
Would any Mayo forward from the last 25 years even make the current Galway matchday 26???

To be fair the comparison that Maroon Manc made was with the top tier elite teams, clearly Galway aren't in this bracket so I'd save the indignation.

To be fair to me he could have said Mayo's front 6 are the weakest out of the top three or four teams and pointed to the fact they got no all star or only Andy Moran scored from play after halftime in the final last year. Hence the reason I gave a childish response to his fairly childish comment that they would struggle to make most division four teams!!

I do agree that the thrust of his argument is right and Horan has had to work with forwards that have struggled to become a cohesive attacking unit but some would argue that Horan has sacrificed the more talented forwards in they county for lads of greater commitment and work rate.

There is trade off either way you look at it and one Mayo have to overcome to be taken as a serious threat to anyone who sees themselves as a top dog ( Dublin) or an aspiring top dog ( Donegal/Cork/Monaghan/Kerry/Meath/Galway).

N.B. I will insert plenty of smiley faces next time I am being childish!!!

Perhaps that was a bit tongue-in-cheek!!

[moysider]

Moysider I can't believe you're suggesting that because JH doesn't manage Man united he shouldn't do it right. Fair enough he can't bring in another big name but he's built his squad on discipline so either you stand by that or you don't.

The story I heard was that RF took one bottle of beer at a wedding in the run up to the AIF.
So either you say "ah it's only one bottle of beer" or like JH you say there was a rule for everyone and you broke it. You knew it was there and you chose to break it. No one else but RF

There s discipline and there s common sense and they don t have to be mutually exclusive.

Not so long ago Tomás O Sé and Gooch Cooper were dropped for a breach of the drinking code that was far more serious than what you say Richie Feeney did. With Jack O Connor common sense prevailed and both players were back as soon as possible and both were brilliant for the rest of the year and won Sam. And that is just the Feeney scenario anyway.

[moysider]

If Horan had played Caff on Murphy, the same fellas would be on here lamenting how he failed to learned the lessons of Ballyshannon....

Caff played on him for the 60 mins after the two goals.

Not sure what you mean? I meant that if Caff had started on Murphy and conceded two goals, he would have been getting the same grief for that decision.

Any chance we can move on from the last 2 All Irelands and look to the next game??

Will there be any changes from the last game?? Anyone fit to challenge? Gibbons? Barrett? B Moran? Parsons??

Difficult to know what he can do. Does he persist with the 2 youngsters in the hf line? McLoughlin in the corner again?
If they are dropped will their confidence take a hit. I thought it a strange decision to start both the last day and now I think he s given himself a problem because it was not a roaring success.
I still can t imaging how anybody would play McLoughlin inside and Doherty on the wing either. I can t see any shape or sense in that. The reality is God knows how the team will emerge from 8-15. It would appear that only the older Bears and McLoughlin are certain to start.

I'd say diarmuid o'c will start, probably not c o'se though. Could diarmuid play as an inside forward??

Maybe but he s no definite. The fact that we re wondering if he can play inside says a lot. I don t think he can - yet anyway. But it s become like an X-factor audition to find a corner forward.

[moysider]

I'm constantly astounded by the criticism Horan gets, he gets a lot more right than he gets wrong. A manager will always make the odd wrong decision, he hasn't made too many in the last few years.
He's not going to get everything right. No manager gets every big decision right.

I don't think any other manager in the country would have taken that set of players to 2 finals, he comfortably has the worst set of forwards amongst one of the so called elite teams, there's a number of those forwards who'd struggle to make the starting 15 amongst division 4 teams.

Ok I'll Suarez then..

Andy Moran, Alan Freeman, Cillian O'Connor, Alan Dillon, Jason Doherty, Kevin McLaughlin would probably be the 6 starters when fit. Which of them wouldn't make the 'starting 15 amongst division 4 teams'?

Doherty and Freeman are very average county players to date, they may go on to prove me wrong but I doubt that.

Andy Moran is nowhere near the player he was, I was a huge admirer of him prior to his injury, he was consistently one of Mayo's best performers for several years but the injury has slowed him down, what pace he did possess has disappeared, he's still very accurate when he finds space but is never going to win a contested ball.

I can't remember what Dillons first 2 final performances were like but I know his last 2 have been appalling. Now I'm suggesting I should base an opinion on him based on 2 performances but his best years are likely behind him.

Have to agree with all that. I thought Doherty had a fairly satisfactory game the last day given the weather  conditions and I think he has the capacity to improve.  Freeman is a total enigma. He has had good days in a Mayo jersey but he's also had more than his fair share of games where he has been totally ineffective.
In the last Roscommon game, if my memory serves me right, he failed to show for a pass or make any effort to contest dirty ball during the entire second half.He was beaten for possession twice in the first two minutes and thereafter he was anonymous until he was taken off.
I honestly think that if Andy hadn't done his cruciate in back in 2012 in the QF against Down, Mayo would have at least one AI by now.
He's never recovered the form he had then but I think he's far too valuable to the side to be left off.
To put it simply; if the style of play doesn't suit Andy, then change the tactics, not the captain.
I'm serious about that btw.
I think Alan Dillon  carried injuries into the last two AIs so some allowances have to be made for that. I'm afraid he didn't play well in '06 or '04 either but then neither did anyone else on those occasions either.

Jaysus Lar you said you agreed with every think he said and then proceeded to qualify every point you agreed on which means you didn t agree at all
Just call him the herrin chokin cnut he undoubtedly is
Only messin maroon manc

We must remember that Mayo forwards are often judged on what happened in September. Days when there was often a total system failure. But it s handier to trot out a stat like no starting forward scoring in the second half in an AI final in living memory or something.

Let s look at some of these much maligned forwards.

Conroy - class young forward but not even in the panel when he was at his best. His dash is gone and is no loner able to burn by defenders and has to go outside now and snatches at shots.

Andy and Dillon - injury robbed their peak years but I m expecting a sting in the tail end of their careers from the pair of them. Very skillful and clever footballers.

Freeman - easy to dismiss him as being an enigma. For me he plays like a player that is looking over his shoulder for the curly finger. He plays like he knows he s not loved and at times he tries too hard and ends up missing the easy and obvious stuff. But he has size and can be a game winner.

Doherty had a great start to 2013 ( 3rd level all star team inc, no mean feat) Injured after. Inside forward and has the size and tecnically good enough to persist with in panel. Can be a lethal finisher.  Not a hf in my opinion though.

[mayoman dan]

And for the 100000000000000 th time, I believe Horan has done a fantastic job and is the beat man for the job , I just believe he has made some crucial mistakes but without him we would not of ever been in a position to make them mistakes.


Jesus it's tough being a Mayo supporter.

Horan has done a fantastic job but he is not the best man for the job.He has taken the team as far as he can and should have stood aside after the aif debacle.

And who is the best man for the job? Kevin McStay I suppose!? Or maybe his brother-in-law?

Is that your view Tubberman because i dont remember saying Mc Stay or Mc Hale for the job?

It's not my view, I'm asking you to expand on your view. You said Horan is not the best man for the job, so you must think someone else would win the all-Ireland if they were managing mayo. Who is it?

In a perfect world i would have Mickey Harte but seen as thats unlikely to happen id be happy enough with Mc Stay.Horan has had his chance and blown it twice

I'm not a Horan cheerleader (believe it or not!), but I can't let that one go.
"Horan has had his chance and blown it twice" You do realise Horan managed Mayo to those finals!? They didn't just win their place on All-Ireland Final day in a lucky-dip! I'd agree he made a balls of last year's final, but he's also produced the finest Mayo team I've ever seen.
Kevin McStay was involved in Mayo senior management back in 94/95 I think, and did f**k all. He then managed the U21s and did decent, but nothing special.
He won an All-Ireland Club Final with St Brigid's, a great achievement, but so did Tommy Jordan and Tommy Lyons (Ballina). Jordan managed Sligo for a very unsuccessful year, Lyons was on Johnno's backroom team. Neither a success by any means.

You might want Mickey Harte, but there are plenty in Tyrone who would be glad to get rid of him at this stage.
You can get fed up and bitch about the man in charge, but remember where he's brought us from, and we could return to if the wrong man was put in charge again.
[/quote]

Yes i do realise Horan managed us to those finals but he made a balls of both of them.Just so were clear Tubberman i was happy to support Horan the last 3 years even though i felt he was caught out badly by Mc Guinness in the 12 final.It has already being said that James has got an awful lot right but in the 2 aif he has messed up terribly.I hope im wrong and we go on to have a good year but all the signs are that were in decline and Horan has alienated and frozen out certain players that could make a difference.I hope i dont come across as some Horan hater im not i respect the man and all the good he has done for us but i just fell that after last years defeat in the final it was the right time to step aside.

[Syferus]

It usually takes an extra year after someone is passed fit from a major cruciate injury like Andy's before they're back to their best. It's been about that now since his and if he's fit I think ye would be basket cases to leave him off the starting 15 in big matches. I certainly wouldn't be taking it for granted that he's past his best just yet.

As much as it pains me to say Andy would die for Mayo if it meant they'd win an All-Ireland. When he plays well it reverberates throughout the Mayo team, he's still a class player and an even better leader.

[mayoman dan]

We must remember that Mayo forwards are often judged on what happened in September. Days when there was often a total system failure. But it s handier to trot out a stat like no starting forward scoring in the second half in an AI final in living memory or something.

Let s look at some of these much maligned forwards.

Conroy - class young forward but not even in the panel when he was at his best. His dash is gone and is no loner able to burn by defenders and has to go outside now and snatches at shots.

Andy and Dillon - injury robbed their peak years but I m expecting a sting in the tail end of their careers from the pair of them. Very skillful and clever footballers.

Freeman - easy to dismiss him as being an enigma. For me he plays like a player that is looking over his shoulder for the curly finger. He plays like he knows he s not loved and at times he tries too hard and ends up missing the easy and obvious stuff. But he has size and can be a game winner.

Doherty had a great start to 2013 ( 3rd level all star team inc, no mean feat) Injured after. Inside forward and has the size and tecnically good enough to persist with in panel. Can be a lethal finisher.  Not a hf in my opinion though.
[/quote]

Id like to see a ff line of Doherty Freeman and Sweeney.Put Mc Loughlin and Cillian in the hf line to deliver good ball to them and we could be on to something.