Football Qualifiers 2014

[Lone Shark]

But if you're a Leitrim or a Waterford, it's still a lot easier to believe that you might just have one good day in that system than in the qualifiers, where you'd need to have the best day of your life four of five times to win a trophy.

To take the example of the Connacht football championship up until maybe this year when Roscommon have become something of a force, teams like Leitrim or Sligo realistically just needed one good day and this system allows them to continue believing in that. Once Leitrim were horsed into the qualifiers, their route to an All Ireland quarter final (not even a trophy, mind!) might have involved beating Down, Kildare, Tyrone and Monaghan. That's way harder than winning any Connacht title.

[westbound]

Here's a suggestion.......(This will get shot down I'm sure, but I don't think I've seen anyone else suggest anything similar!)

Scrap the qualifiers as they are. Keep the AI Q-finals as they are at present (or revert to last year's format where all q-finals were on August bank holiday weekend).

Each province to have 2 representatives in AI q-finals (Provincial winners plus 1 other from each province)

The one other from each province to be determined by a back door in your own province.

So for example, in Leinster Dublin or meath (whoever wins the final) would go to AI q-final and the loser of Dublin/meath would go into 'the Leinster qualifier series'.
The earlier a team is knocked out of a provincial championship the more games they would have to play to get through to AI q-final. So in the case of Dublin/meath, the loser would have just one game to play to get into AI q-final.

Benefits: provincial systems maintained; better chance for weaker teams to get to AI q-final (e.g. one victory over cork/kerry could be enough to get clare/tipperary to AI Q-final)
Negatives: Still an element of unfairness (i.e. strong teams in weak provinces have 2 chances at an easy route to AI q-final)

1. Why on earth do we want weaker teams in an AI quarter final?
2. Why on earth would you address the unequal nature of the provincial system by giving it greater emphasis?

Not trying to be rude, but this is one of the daftest posts I've seen on the board.

Ha Ha, I expected to be shot down, just not quite as bluntly as that!!! 

The reality of the situation is, to solve the 'problem' it first must be agreed what the problem is!

Is the problem that the best teams don't get to the latter stages of the championship?
Is the problem that the best teams DO get to the latter stages of the championship?

What constitutes a 'fair' championship? - one where every team plays the same no. of games? One where every team has an equal chance of winning? One where the best team always wins?

If everybody answered these questions honestly, we could have very different views as to what the problem is, and therefore getting a solution will be extremely difficulty!

[Syferus]

But if you're a Leitrim or a Waterford, it's still a lot easier to believe that you might just have one good day in that system than in the qualifiers, where you'd need to have the best day of your life four of five times to win a trophy.

To take the example of the Connacht football championship up until maybe this year when Roscommon have become something of a force, teams like Leitrim or Sligo realistically just needed one good day and this system allows them to continue believing in that. Once Leitrim were horsed into the qualifiers, their route to an All Ireland quarter final (not even a trophy, mind!) might have involved beating Down, Kildare, Tyrone and Monaghan. That's way harder than winning any Connacht title.

But you've rolled province and qualifier into one - they have a far better chance winning a provincial title now than they would under that system.

[thewobbler]

I agree with you on this westbound. We need to understand what the problem is before we can fix it.

I would think the major problem, unfortunately, is the desire to maintain a 32 team top tier. 

In order to have any hope of progressing in Gaelic Football, you need unusually high fitness levels. If you don't, you'll be found out immediately. So even the weakest teams are forced to commit themselves to rigorous and extensive training regimes. The top-ranked teams knock their bollocks in, and so do the bottom-ranked teams.

The problem for the bottom teams is that almost every year, after exiting the Championship before July, the question has to arise about whether the effort is worth the reward. Which ultimately is why the back door system came to fruition, as previously half the counties in Ireland were done by June. Ironically, I would believe all the back door has actually done is reinforce to lower-ranked teams that they aren't good enough.

[theskull1]

The problem for the bottom teams is that almost every year, after exiting the Championship before July, the question has to arise about whether the effort is worth the reward. Which ultimately is why the back door system came to fruition, as previously half the counties in Ireland were done by June. Ironically, I would believe all the back door has actually done is reinforce to lower-ranked teams that they aren't good enough.

Revenue wasn't a driver then?

[thewobbler]

The problem for the bottom teams is that almost every year, after exiting the Championship before July, the question has to arise about whether the effort is worth the reward. Which ultimately is why the back door system came to fruition, as previously half the counties in Ireland were done by June. Ironically, I would believe all the back door has actually done is reinforce to lower-ranked teams that they aren't good enough.

Revenue wasn't a driver then?

I don't actually believe it was about revenue, so much as an attempt to keep players happy and involved.

[Rossfan]

It was about making sure teams got more than ONE game in high Summer and to ensure that the closing stages avoided the kind of one sided Semi final hammerings that were administered to weak Provincial champions down the years.
Mind you the 4 quarter Finals generate a fair few oul €s while the 24 Qualifier games more than pay their way.
Any new system will HAVE to keep the Provincials but what weight will winning/being runners up in these carry into whatever All Ireland system comes about?
Too much weighting means that the Provincial strait jacket remains and  gives Cork/Kerry/Dublin an easy route to the last 8 or 12 and screws the Ulster teams.
Too little weighting and the Provincials become just warmer uppers for the "real" Championship which will mean the Provincial Councils will probably stop any dimunition of their Empires.
Weak Counties say they don't want to be consigned to a B/2nd tier, yet some of them just about fulfil their Qualifier fixtures and get the deserved hammering.

[Dont Matter]

The great Dont Matter has already came up with the most radical and fantastical new system possible. It's just that others do not have the brain power to compute what they're reading.

The National league would now be like the old championship. It would have the Leinster, Munster, Connacht and Ulster championships. The winners from each would go into the Division one National league semi finals and the final to find out who's the Division one champions.
The 4 beaten provincial finalists would go into a semi final and final to decide the Division 2 champions.
The 8 beaten provincial semi finalists would be split into two groups of 4. The top team in each group would play a final to decide the division 3 champions.
The 16 teams beaten in their provincial quarter final would be split into 4 groups of 4. Top teams in every group go into a semi final and then a final to decide the division 4 champions.
With this system we still have the Provincial championships and 4 divisions in the national league.
Then we move onto the championship which would be an open draw with all 30 something counties in it, first round, second round, quarter finals, semi finals and final. Every team would have to win the same amount of matches to become All Ireland champs and it's knock out, no back door system.

[thewobbler]

The great Dont Matter has already came up with the most radical and fantastical new system possible. It's just that others do not have the brain power to compute what they're reading.

The National league would now be like the old championship. It would have the Leinster, Munster, Connacht and Ulster championships. The winners from each would go into the Division one National league semi finals and the final to find out who's the Division one champions.
The 4 beaten provincial finalists would go into a semi final and final to decide the Division 2 champions.
The 8 beaten provincial semi finalists would be split into two groups of 4. The top team in each group would play a final to decide the division 3 champions.
The 16 teams beaten in their provincial quarter final would be split into 4 groups of 4. Top teams in every group go into a semi final and then a final to decide the division 4 champions.
With this system we still have the Provincial championships and 4 divisions in the national league.
Then we move onto the championship which would be an open draw with all 30 something counties in it, first round, second round, quarter finals, semi finals and final. Every team would have to win the same amount of matches to become All Ireland champs and it's knock out, no back door system.

Haha, talk about trying to solve a problem by making it more complicated.

Personally I can't wait to see the effort that the players and supporters put into the division 4 league group containing Antrim, Waterford, Leitrim and Carlow.  Winning your way through that truly would be the pinnacle of those players' careers.

[Dont Matter]

Haha, talk about trying to solve a problem by making it more complicated.

Personally I can't wait to see the effort that the players and supporters put into the division 4 league group containing Antrim, Waterford, Leitrim and Carlow.  Winning your way through that truly would be the pinnacle of those players' careers.

What's division 4 like now?

[thewobbler]

Haha, talk about trying to solve a problem by making it more complicated.

Personally I can't wait to see the effort that the players and supporters put into the division 4 league group containing Antrim, Waterford, Leitrim and Carlow.  Winning your way through that truly would be the pinnacle of those players' careers.

What's division 4 like now?

It's an opportunity to build, even over a couple of seasons, a team capable of playing division 3. It's not a punishment for losing a provincial championship tie.

Anyway, there's a worse scenario than the one above. Cork beat Kerry in R1 of Munster. So Kerry end up in a group with Leitrim, Antrim and Waterford. Whoever wins that group can go on to become DIVISION FOUR CHAMPIONS!!!!!

Craic.

[Dont Matter]

It's an opportunity to build, even over a couple of seasons, a team capable of playing division 3. It's not a punishment for losing a provincial championship tie.

Anyway, there's a worse scenario than the one above. Cork beat Kerry in R1 of Munster. So Kerry end up in a group with Leitrim, Antrim and Waterford. Whoever wins that group can go on to become DIVISION FOUR CHAMPIONS!!!!!

Craic.

Cork and Kerry are kept apart in Munster, even if they weren't they could only meet in the semi finals. These different divisions could actually be used for seeding for the championship draw. Would make every game important as coming bottom of your group in division 4 would give you a much harder championship game.

[thewobbler]

It's an opportunity to build, even over a couple of seasons, a team capable of playing division 3. It's not a punishment for losing a provincial championship tie.

Anyway, there's a worse scenario than the one above. Cork beat Kerry in R1 of Munster. So Kerry end up in a group with Leitrim, Antrim and Waterford. Whoever wins that group can go on to become DIVISION FOUR CHAMPIONS!!!!!

Craic.

Cork and Kerry are kept apart in Munster, even if they weren't they could only meet in the semi finals. These different divisions could actually be used for seeding for the championship draw. Would make every game important as coming bottom of your group in division 4 would give you a much harder championship game.

So as well as being seeded within their provincial championship, Kerry and Cork could never be placed lower than Division 3, and would therefore basically gain a bye through the first round of the Championship (when they'd be guaranteed to meet one of the (lower seeded) bottom 16 teams)?

what the opposite of Robin Hood?

----

As for makes every game important, no it doesn't. If there's 32 teams in the Championship, that means the 16 D4 sides would each have to play one the 16 higher-ranked teams in round 1. So league games in D4 don't matter for Championship.

So to surmise, if you lose in the first round of your provincial championship, not only would a) you be punished with an extended run of league games against crap opposition in D4, but b) you would be unseeded for the AI Championship. That's a bit sh1t by anyone's standards.

[Dont Matter]

So as well as being seeded within their provincial championship, Kerry and Cork could never be placed lower than Division 3, and would therefore basically gain a bye through the first round of the Championship (when they'd be guaranteed to meet one of the (lower seeded) bottom 16 teams)?

what the opposite of Robin Hood?

----

As for makes every game important, no it doesn't. If there's 32 teams in the Championship, that means the 16 D4 sides would each have to play one the 16 higher-ranked teams in round 1. So league games in D4 don't matter for Championship.

So to surmise, if you lose in the first round of your provincial championship, not only would a) you be punished with an extended run of league games against crap opposition in D4, but b) you would be unseeded for the AI Championship. That's a bit sh1t by anyone's standards.

I knew the genius of Dont Matters new league and championship plan would fly right over the heads of the mere mortals.

Cork or Kerry could have no seeding then, if they lose early it's their problem, like teams in any other Province.

There'd be 4 seeds. 8 or so in each. Provincial finalists are first seeds, beaten Provincial semi finalists are second seeds, the top two in each of the division 4 groups are third seeds and the bottom 2 are 4th seeds. It doesn't have to be seeded it's just an extra great bit of thinking thrown in for free.

If you're knocked out in the first round of your provincial championship then you're not good enough to play in division 3 or higher, just like if you're in division 4 now and can't get out, it's because you're not good enough. You still have the championship to come and potentially you could be playing division one football the year after.

Teams lose matches, I'm afraid there's no system that will get away from that.

[Brick Tamlin]

Did you just refer to yourself in the third person.