Football Qualifiers 2014

[Orior]

The lobsided draw has become even more lobsided (is there a word for that?).

But that's the way the cookie crumbles.

[thewobbler]

County Board officers are the leaders in all counties. The Executive usually gets it's own way. Unless it has real leaders who are above club politics it gets bogged down and we end up with no direction, no vision and no ambition. This is especially true in counties with no tradition of success, thanks to the lob sided nature of GAA competitions.

It's interesting that you'd blame the structure of competitions for a lack of success by counties.

Wales haven't qualified a World Cup in 60 years, even though smaller nations with less resources than them have. Should they blame FIFA? What about Chesterfield FC: almost 100 years in the football league proper, but not having played top-flight football for a single season. Is that the FA's fault?

If your county team has a history of failure, you should start looking in one place and one place only: at your clubs. It's only when a) your clubs are developing and nurturing talent, and b) those same clubs encourage and demand those players into county football, that you can start looking elsewhere for people "to blame".

[Hound]

The simple truth of the matter is that the GAA structures favour the strong. The Qualifiers are a GAA solution to a simple problem. As usual it's complicated and panders to the every exception to every rule.
There is only one way to run any competition in sport - every team must have the same progression path to the Final.

In times gone by the Provincial title was the only route to the All Ireland. And despite the unequal numbers in the provinces it was fairer - you had to win your own province to proceed and the provincial title in it's own right was a coveted prize.

Can't understand how you say the old system was fairer than the current system.

Current system is absolutely fair. Every team gets one chance to win their province, then one chance to win the All Ireland. The further you go in your provincial championship the later you enter the All Ireland series.

In terms of evening up the provinces, numberswise, I'd allow Leinster and Ulster counties elect to join either Connacht or Munster until its 8 each. First come first served, but you must make an irrevocable committment to stay in your new province for 5 years - including minor and U21 level.
Or if all the Leinster and Ulster counties want to stay where they are, then fine, let them all stay, and everyone can shut up with the moaning.

[PatDaly]

A simple answer to this ongoing issue is as follows: Have 8 groups of 4 teams and seed teams based on what league division they finish in each year. New York (and Kilkenny) would play in a qualifier vs division 4 opposition to enter the "group phase". The 16 teams who finish in 3rd and 4th position in each of the 8 groups would play for the All-Ireland "B" championship while the 16 teams who finish in 1st and 2nd position in each of the 8 groups would play for the Sam Maguire.

[Catch and Kick]

A simple answer to this ongoing issue is as follows: Have 8 groups of 4 teams and seed teams based on what league division they finish in each year. New York (and Kilkenny) would play in a qualifier vs division 4 opposition to enter the "group phase". The 16 teams who finish in 3rd and 4th position in each of the 8 groups would play for the All-Ireland "B" championship while the 16 teams who finish in 1st and 2nd position in each of the 8 groups would play for the Sam Maguire.

That would be fair.

[Hound]

A simple answer to this ongoing issue is as follows: Have 8 groups of 4 teams and seed teams based on what league division they finish in each year. New York (and Kilkenny) would play in a qualifier vs division 4 opposition to enter the "group phase". The 16 teams who finish in 3rd and 4th position in each of the 8 groups would play for the All-Ireland "B" championship while the 16 teams who finish in 1st and 2nd position in each of the 8 groups would play for the Sam Maguire.

All Ireland B doesnt work. Seen as a losers competition, so nobody gives a hoot - that's proven.

The only way a B would work would be to make it like county club championships. Split into senior, inter and junior, and the only way you move up is by winning the championship you are in.

An inter All Ireland would be worth winning, would give rise to huge celebrations (like any team that wins their county inter championship) and would have a big reward.

But would the likes of Sligo, Offaly, Wicklow, Cavan, Westmeath, Roscommon, Antrim agree to forego their (very slim) chance of winning Sam to go into the All Ireland Inter championship instead? 

[Rossfan]

A simple answer to this ongoing issue is as follows: Have 8 groups of 4 teams and seed teams based on what league division they finish in each year. New York (and Kilkenny) would play in a qualifier vs division 4 opposition to enter the "group phase". The 16 teams who finish in 3rd and 4th position in each of the 8 groups would play for the All-Ireland "B" championship while the 16 teams who finish in 1st and 2nd position in each of the 8 groups would play for the Sam Maguire.

All Ireland B doesnt work. Seen as a losers competition, so nobody gives a hoot - that's proven.

The only way a B would work would be to make it like county club championships. Split into senior, inter and junior, and the only way you move up is by winning the championship you are in.

An inter All Ireland would be worth winning, would give rise to huge celebrations (like any team that wins their county inter championship) and would have a big reward.

But would the likes of Sligo, Offaly, Wicklow, Cavan, Westmeath, Roscommon, Antrim agree to forego their (very slim) chance of winning Sam to go into the All Ireland Inter championship instead?

Probably wouldn't unless there was a route to the Sam for the winners/finalists.
While we await that perhaps a staged Qualifier system e.g FA Cup in Soccer:-
Seed the 24 teams who don't make the Provincial Finals based on their League position.
Round 1 - 8 games between the 16 lowest seeds either open or 2 pots ( 1 with seeds 9 to 16, the other with seeds 17 to 24)
Round 2 -8 winners of Round 1 v seeds 1-8.
Round 3 -winners of round 2  and then as at present.

[Real Talk]

A simple answer to this ongoing issue is as follows: Have 8 groups of 4 teams and seed teams based on what league division they finish in each year. New York (and Kilkenny) would play in a qualifier vs division 4 opposition to enter the "group phase". The 16 teams who finish in 3rd and 4th position in each of the 8 groups would play for the All-Ireland "B" championship while the 16 teams who finish in 1st and 2nd position in each of the 8 groups would play for the Sam Maguire.

That would be fair.

I would certainly agree with that too.  Just to further illustrate the lack of equality in the current system ......
In Ulster Tyrone played the prelim round against Down (Match 1) ... (that's part of an unfair situation in Ulster that year on year allow the teams who have played the prev Prelimary round back into the first part of the Draw for the following years Championship)
Because of a replay ... no one fault there ... Tyrone beat Down (Match 2)
Ulster quarter final Tyrone get beat by Monaghan (Match 3)
Now in the qualifiers Tyrone play Armagh or Monaghan (not again !! Match 4)
And low and behold the winners of above (Match 5 if Tyrone) next game is against either Kerry (who have YET to play a match in) or Clare

Where is the equality in that system !!!!! (I do know it is the most extreme but never the less real scenario)

[imtommygunn]

Did kerry not beat clare??

[time ticking away]

A simple answer to this ongoing issue is as follows: Have 8 groups of 4 teams and seed teams based on what league division they finish in each year. New York (and Kilkenny) would play in a qualifier vs division 4 opposition to enter the "group phase". The 16 teams who finish in 3rd and 4th position in each of the 8 groups would play for the All-Ireland "B" championship while the 16 teams who finish in 1st and 2nd position in each of the 8 groups would play for the Sam Maguire.

That would be fair.

I would certainly agree with that too.  Just to further illustrate the lack of equality in the current system ......
In Ulster Tyrone played the prelim round against Down (Match 1) ... (that's part of an unfair situation in Ulster that year on year allow the teams who have played the prev Prelimary round back into the first part of the Draw for the following years Championship)
Because of a replay ... no one fault there ... Tyrone beat Down (Match 2)
Ulster quarter final Tyrone get beat by Monaghan (Match 3)
Now in the qualifiers Tyrone play Armagh or Monaghan (not again !! Match 4)
And low and behold the winners of above (Match 5 if Tyrone) next game is against either Kerry (who have YET to play a match in) or Clare

Where is the equality in that system !!!!! (I do know it is the most extreme but never the less real scenario)

Match 4 would be tyrone v louth

[Real Talk]

A simple answer to this ongoing issue is as follows: Have 8 groups of 4 teams and seed teams based on what league division they finish in each year. New York (and Kilkenny) would play in a qualifier vs division 4 opposition to enter the "group phase". The 16 teams who finish in 3rd and 4th position in each of the 8 groups would play for the All-Ireland "B" championship while the 16 teams who finish in 1st and 2nd position in each of the 8 groups would play for the Sam Maguire.

That would be fair.

I would certainly agree with that too.  Just to further illustrate the lack of equality in the current system ......
In Ulster Tyrone played the prelim round against Down (Match 1) ... (that's part of an unfair situation in Ulster that year on year allow the teams who have played the prev Prelimary round back into the first part of the Draw for the following years Championship)
Because of a replay ... no one fault there ... Tyrone beat Down (Match 2)
Ulster quarter final Tyrone get beat by Monaghan (Match 3)
Now in the qualifiers Tyrone play Armagh or Monaghan (not again !! Match 4)
And low and behold the winners of above (Match 5 if Tyrone) next game is against either Kerry (who have YET to play a match in) or Clare

Where is the equality in that system !!!!! (I do know it is the most extreme but never the less real scenario)

Match 4 would be tyrone v louth

Yes my mistake your right and of course Kerry beat Clare

Just stating the fact that Tyrone's next game is at the same stage as Clare

[westbound]

Here's a suggestion.......(This will get shot down I'm sure, but I don't think I've seen anyone else suggest anything similar!)

Scrap the qualifiers as they are. Keep the AI Q-finals as they are at present (or revert to last year's format where all q-finals were on August bank holiday weekend).

Each province to have 2 representatives in AI q-finals (Provincial winners plus 1 other from each province)

The one other from each province to be determined by a back door in your own province.

So for example, in Leinster Dublin or meath (whoever wins the final) would go to AI q-final and the loser of Dublin/meath would go into 'the Leinster qualifier series'.
The earlier a team is knocked out of a provincial championship the more games they would have to play to get through to AI q-final. So in the case of Dublin/meath, the loser would have just one game to play to get into AI q-final.

Benefits: provincial systems maintained; better chance for weaker teams to get to AI q-final (e.g. one victory over cork/kerry could be enough to get clare/tipperary to AI Q-final)
Negatives: Still an element of unfairness (i.e. strong teams in weak provinces have 2 chances at an easy route to AI q-final)

[thewobbler]

Here's a suggestion.......(This will get shot down I'm sure, but I don't think I've seen anyone else suggest anything similar!)

Scrap the qualifiers as they are. Keep the AI Q-finals as they are at present (or revert to last year's format where all q-finals were on August bank holiday weekend).

Each province to have 2 representatives in AI q-finals (Provincial winners plus 1 other from each province)

The one other from each province to be determined by a back door in your own province.

So for example, in Leinster Dublin or meath (whoever wins the final) would go to AI q-final and the loser of Dublin/meath would go into 'the Leinster qualifier series'.
The earlier a team is knocked out of a provincial championship the more games they would have to play to get through to AI q-final. So in the case of Dublin/meath, the loser would have just one game to play to get into AI q-final.

Benefits: provincial systems maintained; better chance for weaker teams to get to AI q-final (e.g. one victory over cork/kerry could be enough to get clare/tipperary to AI Q-final)
Negatives: Still an element of unfairness (i.e. strong teams in weak provinces have 2 chances at an easy route to AI q-final)

1. Why on earth do we want weaker teams in an AI quarter final?
2. Why on earth would you address the unequal nature of the provincial system by giving it greater emphasis?

Not trying to be rude, but this is one of the daftest posts I've seen on the board.

[Lone Shark]

Funnily enough I actually would favour a system closer to this, which would be that each province runs their own championship and runs a backdoor within that. For example, the Ulster SFC might be run along the lines of three groups of three, where every team plays two group matches. Two of the group winners go straight into the semi-finals, the three runners-up and the weakest group winner goes into quarters, play knockout from there and All Ireland semi-finals as before.

Connacht and Munster could play two groups of three with semi-finals, and Leinster play 4/4/3, with the top 3/3/2 qualifying for quarters, or 2/2/2 where the winners of the four team groups go straight into the semis, if they want more edge to the group games.

The advantages that I can see are:

(1) Teams train to win a provincial title. As things stand now, what happens is that counties who might phone it in for the qualifiers might maintain their interest if what they see as an attainable goal is still on the table.
(2) The games can be run off quicker and more teams would be knocked out earlier, which makes it easier for club games to be played.
(3) The provincial councils would be happy with this and would play along, unlike any other changes which dilute the importance of the provincial championships.
(4) You'd restore the importance and significance to provincial finals and semi-finals, since they would be win or bust games.


You'd lose the novelty of backdoor games between opponents that don't normally meet in championship, but for every game like Longford vs Cavan or Donegal vs Sligo, you currently get ten games that are similar to Down vs Leitrim last weekend at the moment. No history between the sides, no contest, nothing to it. I think that's a small price to pay.

[Syferus]

I don't think the consistency required in that system to win a provincial title is in any way more attainable than navigating the current Qualifier system.

The appeal of the provincials for counties like Leitrim is that maybe they can catch a better county on the hop, that's impossible if that county has multiple fail-safes, they'll probably just end up still bettering or beating the minnow.