Paisley

[Mayo4Sam]

I think Paisely and Gerry Adams are exactly the same just one opposite sides of an argument.

You avoided my question, care to answer it?

"According to the CAIN research project at the University of Ulster, the Provisional IRA was responsible for the deaths of 1,824 people during the Troubles up to 2001", so almost 2,000.
And yes I consider anyone that is murdered innocent

You haven't answered my specific question relating to Paisley's specific action.

P.S. Were all Mick Collins' victims innocent?

I have answered your question, yes I consider those two actions to be exactly the same

Now will you answer mine?

[Nally Stand]

I think Paisely and Gerry Adams are exactly the same just one opposite sides of an argument.

You avoided my question, care to answer it?

"According to the CAIN research project at the University of Ulster, the Provisional IRA was responsible for the deaths of 1,824 people during the Troubles up to 2001", so almost 2,000.
And yes I consider anyone that is murdered innocent

You haven't answered my specific question relating to Paisley's specific action.

P.S. Were all Mick Collins' victims innocent?

I have answered your question, yes I consider those two actions to be exactly the same

Now will you answer mine?

Staggering. In your mind, the IRA killed "almost two thousand innocent people"; and Gerry Adams denying he was in the IRA is as bad as Paisley wrongly accusing a man, in westminster, the day after he saw three brothers murdered, of himself having murdering 10 innocent people, thereby deliberately putting his life under direct threat from every loyalist paramilitary gang there was. I'd just love you to stand in front of Eugene Reavey ask him if he would agree with you.

Do I think Adams is a coward for not admitting he was in the IRA? Hardly. He has spend his entire life working under a threat of death from numerous sides. He has survived being shot (in the neck, shoulder and arm) and still kept going at his work. I'm sure he was in the IRA. I'd be very disappointed if he weren't. However, if he admitted he was in the IRA, then he'd have been thrown in jail. Thankfully, he wasn't and as a result, we have a peace process. Which simply wouldn't have happened without his work. Work for which his life remains under threat to this day. So no, hardly a coward.

Were Mick Collins' victims innocent?

[Mayo4Sam]

Michael Collins was a different period in history, one which I wasnt around for, so I'll pass on judging that.

Gerry Adams still maintains he wasnt in the IRA, I dont think he is in any danger of being thrown in jail now. So yes a coward.
Courage of your convictions and all that.

As for your comments about Eugene Reaveys, I'm sure the families of Inam Bashir and John Jeffries would have something similar to say to Gerry Adams, after he refused to condemn the IRA for the Canary Wharf bombings.

Like I say, Adams and Paisley are peas from the same pod

[trueblue1234]

Michael Collins was a different period in history, one which I wasnt around for, so I'll pass on judging that.
Gerry Adams still maintains he wasnt in the IRA, I dont think he is in any danger of being thrown in jail now. So yes a coward.
Courage of your convictions and all that.

As for your comments about Eugene Reaveys, I'm sure the families of Inam Bashir and John Jeffries would have something similar to say to Gerry Adams, after he refused to condemn the IRA for the Canary Wharf bombings.

Like I say, Adams and Paisley are peas from the same pod

Typical and convenient.

PS You'd do well to be ignorant about the circumstances around Michael Collins and I'd find it staggering to believe that you don't know enough about it to make an assessment.

[Nally Stand]

Michael Collins was a different period in history, one which I wasnt around for, so I'll pass on judging that.

Brilliant!! "Different period", "I wasn't there"!!! It's your own history. If you are happy to pronounce that "all" IRA victims were innocent, then man up and answer the question, were Mick Collins' victims "all innocent"?

Gerry Adams still maintains he wasnt in the IRA, I dont think he is in any danger of being thrown in jail now. So yes a coward.

Yes there is. There's no amnesty. Anyone who admits IRA membership and who has not already been charged for it, will be charged for it.

As for your comments about Eugene Reaveys, I'm sure the families of Inam Bashir and John Jeffries would have something similar to say to Gerry Adams, after he refused to condemn the IRA for the Canary Wharf bombings.

Adams' refusal to condemn an IRA operation is the same as publically accusing the victims family, a day afterwards, of having murdered ten people, and thereby putting their life in immediate danger? Unless Adams stood in a parliament the day after Canary Wharf and accused a brother of Inam Bashir or John Jeffries of having murdered ten people, then you are seriously talking through your ass.

[Mayo4Sam]

I didnt say I was ignorant surrounding the circumstances of Micheal Collins, I said I wasnt in a position to comment, I'll stand by that.

I'm not sure how that is typical of me either, or indeed how convienent it is for me.

I would also doubt that GA would go to jail, buts thats just my opinion

And yes I do consider those actions to be exactly the same, refusing to condemn the murdering of two innocent people in London is wrong. Paisley accusing someone "of having murdered ten people" is equally wrong, just a different type of wrong.

I'll leave it with this, you're trying to get say that one act is more wrong than another. They are both despicable acts but there are people on here who would have Paisley lynched and Adams made Pope. My argument is that they are similar characters from opposite sides of an argument

[Cold tea]

I didnt say I was ignorant surrounding the circumstances of Micheal Collins, I said I wasnt in a position to comment, I'll stand by that.

And you call Adam's a coward, answer the question or stop talking through your hole.

[muppet]

Why the obsessive need for Shinners to compare Adams to Mandela, Michael Collins or anyone that ever got any credit for anything ever?

FGers don't proclaim their leader to be anything in particular, FFers aren't constantly promoting anyone as great, even Dev. Unionists, from where I sit, aren't particularly eulogising Paisley (Lawnseed accepted) and Tories rarely bang the drum regarding the greatness of  Cameron.

So what is the deal with the Shinners desperate need to persuade people who either are indifferent to Adams, or who hate him, that they have it all wrong and he is in fact a Saint?

[Nally Stand]

I didnt say I was ignorant surrounding the circumstances of Micheal Collins, I said I wasnt in a position to comment, I'll stand by that.

I'm not sure how that is typical of me either, or indeed how convienent it is for me.

I would also doubt that GA would go to jail, buts thats just my opinion

And yes I do consider those actions to be exactly the same, refusing to condemn the murdering of two innocent people in London is wrong. Paisley accusing someone "of having murdered ten people" is equally wrong, just a different type of wrong.

I'll leave it with this, you're trying to get say that one act is more wrong than another. They are both despicable acts but there are people on here who would have Paisley lynched and Adams made Pope. My argument is that they are similar characters from opposite sides of an argument

Ah now come on, don't cop out of commenting on history "because you weren't around". Did you use that excuse to stand outside the classroom door during history classes in school? When you sat down to do a history exam, did you answer every question with "I can't possibly comment as i wasn't around at the time"?! I assume you have some basic knowledge of your own country's history, so don't just yellow out. Tell us whether or not you believe Mick Collins' victims were "all innocent".

And seriously....Adams not admitting he was in the IRA is as equally bad as Paisley falsely accusing triple murder victims' brother as being a sectarian murder, the day after his brothers were shot dead? Sorry to keep repeating my shock here, but on what plane of fantasy do you have to live on to genuinely believe this? Given the fate of Pat Finucane after being wrongly named and accused in Westminster in the same way Eugene Reavey was, then who's life was put in immediate danger by Adams' denial of IRA membership?

[Nally Stand]

Why the obsessive need for Shinners to compare Adams to Mandela, Michael Collins or anyone that ever got any credit for anything ever?

FGers don't proclaim their leader to be anything in particular, FFers aren't constantly promoting anyone as great, even Dev. Unionists, from where I sit, aren't particularly eulogising Paisley (Lawnseed accepted) and Tories rarely bang the drum regarding the greatness of  Cameron.

So what is the deal with the Shinners desperate need to persuade people who either are indifferent to Adams, or who hate him, that they have it all wrong and he is in fact a Saint?

On a thread where we are told that "all" IRA victims were innocent and that a denial of membership of an organisation is equally as bad as publically and wrongly accusing a man of mass sectarian murder the day after his three brothers were shot dead, all you have to take issue with is a seemingly uncomfortable reference to Mick Collins? Yeah, how dare Shinners question our dearly held, and desperately needed hypocrisy. Mick Collins, he was the saint.

[muppet]

Why the obsessive need for Shinners to compare Adams to Mandela, Michael Collins or anyone that ever got any credit for anything ever?

FGers don't proclaim their leader to be anything in particular, FFers aren't constantly promoting anyone as great, even Dev. Unionists, from where I sit, aren't particularly eulogising Paisley (Lawnseed accepted) and Tories rarely bang the drum regarding the greatness of  Cameron.

So what is the deal with the Shinners desperate need to persuade people who either are indifferent to Adams, or who hate him, that they have it all wrong and he is in fact a Saint?

Aren't they just highlighting hypocrisy?

So it is all about hypocrisy awareness?   

[muppet]

Why the obsessive need for Shinners to compare Adams to Mandela, Michael Collins or anyone that ever got any credit for anything ever?

FGers don't proclaim their leader to be anything in particular, FFers aren't constantly promoting anyone as great, even Dev. Unionists, from where I sit, aren't particularly eulogising Paisley (Lawnseed accepted) and Tories rarely bang the drum regarding the greatness of  Cameron.

So what is the deal with the Shinners desperate need to persuade people who either are indifferent to Adams, or who hate him, that they have it all wrong and he is in fact a Saint?

On a thread where we are told that "all" IRA victims were innocent and that a denial of membership of an organisation is equally as bad as publically and wrongly accusing a man of mass sectarian murder the day after his three brothers were shot dead, all you have to take issue with is a seemingly uncomfortable reference to Mick Collins? Yeah, how dare Shinners question our dearly held, and desperately needed hypocrisy. Mick Collins, he was the saint.

quote]
On a thread where we are told that "all" IRA victims were innocent and that a denial of membership of an organisation is equally as bad as publically and wrongly accusing a man of mass sectarian murder the day after his three brothers were shot dead, all you have to take issue with is a seemingly uncomfortable reference to Mick Collins? Yeah, how dare Shinners question our dearly held, and desperately needed hypocrisy. Mick Collins, he was the saint.
[/quote]

Are you serious?

You and others here constantly compare Adams to Collins, presumably to validate his violent past, but this is a past he vehemently denies over and over again.

Collins died fighting his war, while Adams says he was never part of his war. Part of the misguided reverence for Collins is as a result of his dying young (see how Brian Lenihan gets off quite lightly for his disastrous ministry),but I'm afraid Gerry doesn't qualify as a beneficiary of the sympathy vote by virtue of his still being with us.

Finally the comparison with Collins assumes that he was and is unequivocally revered ("Mick Collins, he was the saint") by all in the South. This is nonsense. He was still a killer.

[Nally Stand]

Why the obsessive need for Shinners to compare Adams to Mandela, Michael Collins or anyone that ever got any credit for anything ever?

FGers don't proclaim their leader to be anything in particular, FFers aren't constantly promoting anyone as great, even Dev. Unionists, from where I sit, aren't particularly eulogising Paisley (Lawnseed accepted) and Tories rarely bang the drum regarding the greatness of  Cameron.

So what is the deal with the Shinners desperate need to persuade people who either are indifferent to Adams, or who hate him, that they have it all wrong and he is in fact a Saint?

On a thread where we are told that "all" IRA victims were innocent and that a denial of membership of an organisation is equally as bad as publically and wrongly accusing a man of mass sectarian murder the day after his three brothers were shot dead, all you have to take issue with is a seemingly uncomfortable reference to Mick Collins? Yeah, how dare Shinners question our dearly held, and desperately needed hypocrisy. Mick Collins, he was the saint.

quote]
On a thread where we are told that "all" IRA victims were innocent and that a denial of membership of an organisation is equally as bad as publically and wrongly accusing a man of mass sectarian murder the day after his three brothers were shot dead, all you have to take issue with is a seemingly uncomfortable reference to Mick Collins? Yeah, how dare Shinners question our dearly held, and desperately needed hypocrisy. Mick Collins, he was the saint.

Are you serious?

You and others here constantly compare Adams to Collins, presumably to validate his violent past, but this is a past he vehemently denies over and over again.

Collins died fighting his war, while Adams says he was never part of his war. Part of the misguided reverence for Collins is as a result of his dying young (see how Brian Lenihan gets off quite lightly for his disastrous ministry),but I'm afraid Gerry doesn't qualify as a beneficiary of the sympathy vote by virtue of his still being with us.

Finally the comparison with Collins assumes that he was and is unequivocally revered ("Mick Collins, he was the saint") by all in the South. This is nonsense. He was still a killer.
[/quote]

Not all about comparisons between Adams & Collins. That's just a scaled down representation of the more common argument, i.e. were the IRA's at either end of the centuries both freedom fighters or both criminal gangs? As for as your idea that Collin's isn't revered in the south, I'd suggest that he is. You quite easily call him a killer, but do also you call him a criminal? And his organisation, a "Criminal gang"? Because I'd also suggest that while most people in the south who would recoil in horror at the very idea of calling men who fought for their freedom "criminals", most of the same people would trip over themselves to call the men who fought for my freedom, "criminals".

[BennyCake]

Strange how Paisley doesn't remember saying things against Catholics, The Pope etc, yet his mind is clear as a bell about other quotes.

[Wildweasel74]

After watching the show on BBC1 2night i say Ian paisley has alot to answer for, this motherfucker one of the biggest causes of the troubles and denys any responsibility for it, hell even the English coudlnt get rid of the bollocks!