Girl taken from roma family in Dublin

[moysider]

To spell it out for some of our slower posters.

Allegations of child sexual abuse should always be reported to the Gárdaí, investigations should be conducted, evidence should be sought and if guilty, perpetrators should be severely punished. Priest or gypsy or anyone else.

False allegations of sexual or other abuse should be investigated to discover their motives. If they are proven to be malicious they should also be severely dealt with.

Not sure about that Muppet. We have a history of stuff that happened and was kept under wraps. Now people that work with kids are vetted and if anybody that suspects a young person is being abused or at risk must report their suspicions. Then the guards, HSE, social workers investigate the report. Better that suspicions are checked out than missing something because nobody bothers to report suspicions.

While this was happening a young girl - foreign national, about 15,=, possibly drugged and abducted and that might have been trafficed was found in O Connell Street in distress.

Nobody should be afraid to report suspected child abuse because they ll be severly dealth with. That would be putting us back into the dark days of Fortune, Smyth etc.

Would you not accept that someone should have a reason to suspect the child abuse?

Yes. And child abuse is very extensive in definition.

In this case it looks like somebody could not imagine how a dark- skinned, brown-eyed couple could end up with a blond blue-eyed kid ( I explained how it could have happened earlier).

The Greek situation set it off. It s not nice for that Romany family. That blond gene would not be a welcome trait for obvious reasons.

Ok, better be ignorant and report suspicions and be shown up wrong than ignore stuff. IMO the guards and HSE played it by the book. It could not have gone any other way. Are you suggesting that state goes after the people that reported their suspicions? That would be a major no-no imo.

[muppet]

To spell it out for some of our slower posters.

Allegations of child sexual abuse should always be reported to the Gárdaí, investigations should be conducted, evidence should be sought and if guilty, perpetrators should be severely punished. Priest or gypsy or anyone else.

False allegations of sexual or other abuse should be investigated to discover their motives. If they are proven to be malicious they should also be severely dealt with.

Not sure about that Muppet. We have a history of stuff that happened and was kept under wraps. Now people that work with kids are vetted and if anybody that suspects a young person is being abused or at risk must report their suspicions. Then the guards, HSE, social workers investigate the report. Better that suspicions are checked out than missing something because nobody bothers to report suspicions.

While this was happening a young girl - foreign national, about 15,=, possibly drugged and abducted and that might have been trafficed was found in O Connell Street in distress.

Nobody should be afraid to report suspected child abuse because they ll be severly dealth with. That would be putting us back into the dark days of Fortune, Smyth etc.

Would you not accept that someone should have a reason to suspect the child abuse?

Yes. And child abuse is very extensive in definition.

In this case it looks like somebody could not imagine how a dark- skinned, brown-eyed couple could end up with a blond blue-eyed kid ( I explained how it could have happened earlier).

The Greek situation set it off. It s not nice for that Romany family. That blond gene would not be a welcome trait for obvious reasons.

Ok, better be ignorant and report suspicions and be shown up wrong than ignore stuff. IMO the guards and HSE played it by the book. It could not have gone any other way. Are you suggesting that state goes after the people that reported their suspicions? That would be a major no-no imo.

I did say if the complaint was 'malicious'.

People have a right to a good name by law. You cannot allow gratuitous claims of child abuse or anything else without even a shred of evidence. Adolf and Josef were big fans of that style of policing, among others.

In all seriousness, is the colour of a child's hair sufficient evidence to make an accusation of child abuse?

[moysider]

The more I think of the pure naked ignorance of this issue the dafter it gets.

Just think, if the Roma were smart enough to only steal non-blond children they would be fine.

Gas- but your on the money. Extra kids is probably the least of their problems.

Romas have enough kids of their own to send out begging than be bothered natching blonds! 

That's not the point here.

Wouldn't mind, but I gave ye a lesson on genetics earlier but all ye want to do is row.

[moysider]

To spell it out for some of our slower posters.

Allegations of child sexual abuse should always be reported to the Gárdaí, investigations should be conducted, evidence should be sought and if guilty, perpetrators should be severely punished. Priest or gypsy or anyone else.

False allegations of sexual or other abuse should be investigated to discover their motives. If they are proven to be malicious they should also be severely dealt with.

Not sure about that Muppet. We have a history of stuff that happened and was kept under wraps. Now people that work with kids are vetted and if anybody that suspects a young person is being abused or at risk must report their suspicions. Then the guards, HSE, social workers investigate the report. Better that suspicions are checked out than missing something because nobody bothers to report suspicions.

While this was happening a young girl - foreign national, about 15,=, possibly drugged and abducted and that might have been trafficed was found in O Connell Street in distress.

Nobody should be afraid to report suspected child abuse because they ll be severly dealth with. That would be putting us back into the dark days of Fortune, Smyth etc.

Would you not accept that someone should have a reason to suspect the child abuse?

Yes. And child abuse is very extensive in definition.

In this case it looks like somebody could not imagine how a dark- skinned, brown-eyed couple could end up with a blond blue-eyed kid ( I explained how it could have happened earlier).

The Greek situation set it off. It s not nice for that Romany family. That blond gene would not be a welcome trait for obvious reasons.

Ok, better be ignorant and report suspicions and be shown up wrong than ignore stuff. IMO the guards and HSE played it by the book. It could not have gone any other way. Are you suggesting that state goes after the people that reported their suspicions? That would be a major no-no imo.

I did say if the complaint was 'malicious'.

People have a right to a good name by law. You cannot allow gratuitous claims of child abuse or anything else without even a shred of evidence. Adolf and Josef were big fans of that style of policing, among others.

In all seriousness, is the colour of a child's hair sufficient evidence to make an accusation of child abuse?

Of course not.

Not saying that at all. But I would prefer if people did express concerns than mind their own business. Unfortunately because this is about the Romany community we get the vibe that it is reactionary and OTT.  It s great that this case and the other checked out. But there is child-abuse ongoing all the time and people know about it and choose to keep their mouth's shut - maybe easier to report a different culture in a big urban area. TBH I think there is no harm in people reporting suspicions to gardaí. Believe me they usually have a good idea whose genuine or not.

[muppet]

The more I think of the pure naked ignorance of this issue the dafter it gets.

Just think, if the Roma were smart enough to only steal non-blond children they would be fine.

Gas- but your on the money. Extra kids is probably the least of their problems.

Romas have enough kids of their own to send out begging than be bothered natching blonds! 

That's not the point here.

Wouldn't mind, but I gave ye a lesson on genetics earlier but all ye want to do is row.

I know that was in jest but you hit the nail on the head.

Here is a completely fictitious interview with Sly News 'genetics expert':

Sly News: How likely is it for a Roma couple to have a blond child?

Expert: Highly unlikely.

Sly News: Thank you. There you have it, solid proof of child abuse.

Meanwhile in a bar in Mayo:

Moysider: What if one of the grandparents was blond?

Gárda in bar beside Moysider: Oh bollix.

At exactly the same time in a bar in Dublin:

Muppet to pale looking Gárda: What's wrong?

Gárda: f**k it, we took Conor Mortimer into care because his boots were white, and Trevor and Kenny's were black.

Muppet: Meh, barman can I have a Guinness? I might get arrested if I am seen with a lager.

[muppet]

Of course not.

Not saying that at all. But I would prefer if people did express concerns than mind their own business. Unfortunately because this is about the Romany community we get the vibe that it is reactionary and OTT.  It s great that this case and the other checked out. But there is child-abuse ongoing all the time and people know about it and choose to keep their mouth's shut - maybe easier to report a different culture in a big urban area. TBH I think there is no harm in people reporting suspicions to gardaí. Believe me they usually have a good idea whose genuine or not.

I am not disputing any of this. You are talking about real child abuse or at least likely child abuse. If people have 'concerns' as you put it they should report it. If they are behaving genuinely, even if they are wrong, they should have nothing to fear. I am not saying otherwise.

But two people reported two Roma families for child abduction within 24 hours, purely because they had blond children.

Remember, to take two small children from their parents against their will is also abusing the children. My two kids would be hysterical as would I be. But we know it is lawful under certain circumstances for obvious and varied reasons.

But surely there has to be even the tiniest bit of evidence before we can act?

[moysider]

Of course not.

Not saying that at all. But I would prefer if people did express concerns than mind their own business. Unfortunately because this is about the Romany community we get the vibe that it is reactionary and OTT.  It s great that this case and the other checked out. But there is child-abuse ongoing all the time and people know about it and choose to keep their mouth's shut - maybe easier to report a different culture in a big urban area. TBH I think there is no harm in people reporting suspicions to gardaí. Believe me they usually have a good idea whose genuine or not.

I am not disputing any of this. You are talking about real child abuse or at least likely child abuse. If people have 'concerns' as you put it they should report it. If they are behaving genuinely, even if they are wrong, they should have nothing to fear. I am not saying otherwise.

But two people reported two Roma families for child abduction within 24 hours, purely because they had blond children.

Remember, to take two small children from their parents against their will is also abusing the children. My two kids would be hysterical as would I be. But we know it is lawful under certain circumstances for obvious and varied reasons.

But surely there has to be even the tiniest bit of evidence before we can act?

The evidence for the people that rang the guards was I assume that they could not reconcile a blond kid with dard parents. The Greek thing all over the media rang bells. They wouldn' t know that there was a genetic rogue in there going back a few generations when the Nazi s were letting aff a bit of steam and every gypsy girl didn't have her throat cut after they finished with her. The autorities had to act imo. Shatter' s stupid display in the Seanad today was awful. Throwing it back on the Guards. They did what they what did were supposed to do.

[muppet]

Of course not.

Not saying that at all. But I would prefer if people did express concerns than mind their own business. Unfortunately because this is about the Romany community we get the vibe that it is reactionary and OTT.  It s great that this case and the other checked out. But there is child-abuse ongoing all the time and people know about it and choose to keep their mouth's shut - maybe easier to report a different culture in a big urban area. TBH I think there is no harm in people reporting suspicions to gardaí. Believe me they usually have a good idea whose genuine or not.

I am not disputing any of this. You are talking about real child abuse or at least likely child abuse. If people have 'concerns' as you put it they should report it. If they are behaving genuinely, even if they are wrong, they should have nothing to fear. I am not saying otherwise.

But two people reported two Roma families for child abduction within 24 hours, purely because they had blond children.

Remember, to take two small children from their parents against their will is also abusing the children. My two kids would be hysterical as would I be. But we know it is lawful under certain circumstances for obvious and varied reasons.

But surely there has to be even the tiniest bit of evidence before we can act?

The evidence for the people that rang the guards was I assume that they could not reconcile a blond kid with dard parents. The Greek thing all over the media rang bells. They wouldn' t know that there was a genetic rogue in there going back a few generations when the Nazi s were letting aff a bit of steam and every gypsy girl didn't have her throat cut after they finished with her. The autorities had to act imo. Shatter' s stupid display in the Seanad today was awful. Throwing it back on the Guards. They did what they what did were supposed to do.

The people that rang the Gárdaí were TV3.

If this was triggered by the Greek episode, and people are happy to justify it on that, then we have a far bigger problem. Media sensation is no reason to suspend proper policing practise and natural justice.

The Gárdaí had to act, but they will rightly be criticised for taking the child on an idiotic premise. Removal of the child into care should be the last resort as it is an abuse of the child in itself.

Consider this. The basis for the allegation of child abuse or abduction was ignorance, fuelled by low brow media coverage, nothing more nothing less. The family's failure to disprove the allegation immediately and conclusively, was used as evidence to support the ignorance based allegation against them. You saw this argument reproduced in the media and on here. 'There was a problem with their passport', 'the Gárdaí couldn't find proof in the Coombe'.

Turns out 'the problem' with the passport was that the child was much younger in the photograph. Seriously. Imagine that. A five or ten year passport of a 7 year old had a much younger picture. No shit Sherlock.

And as for the Coombe they registered the birth with the mother's name instead of the father's. The assumption that all children are registered in the father's name is about as solid as the assumption that all dark haired people have blond children.

Just like the Cleveland scandal in 1987 (I put a link to a summary of the report on here earlier) this all came about because a false premise was assumed to be correct, and that was the starting point for the authorities. Because of that assumption any evidence to the contrary was dismissed or ignored.

Do we want that type of policing?

Internment anyone?

I hope the family successfully sues the arses of everyone involved in this shambles.

[AQMP]

Can't believe some of the stuff on here.

Let's make this easy.  A priority for the authorities should be to DNA test all Roma children who look a bit "different".  Then as another poster stated, why not DNA test those children who look a bit Roma i.e. dark haired and skinned, but could possibly be abducted or trafficked Spanish, Italian or Greek children.  Fcuk sake there's absolutely no proof the they're Roma kids either.  Then we get the team from Prime Time Investigates to doorstep a few Africans, because fcuk knows where their kids come from and they could possibly be abducted.

Actually why don't we DNA test anyone in the general population regardless of ethnicity aged under 16 and their "alleged" parents.  We might find out that some woman (probably eastern European) in Athlone had an affair and her husband is not the father of one of her children.  Better safe than sorry.

As for those dangerous gingers and people who don't look exactly like their passport photos...well, we'll let TV3 decide their fate.

[Wee Roddy]

To spell it out for some of our slower posters.

Allegations of child sexual abuse should always be reported to the Gárdaí, investigations should be conducted, evidence should be sought and if guilty, perpetrators should be severely punished. Priest or gypsy or anyone else.

False allegations of sexual or other abuse should be investigated to discover their motives. If they are proven to be malicious they should also be severely dealt with.

In a nut shell this is it. Investigate whoever reported it and their motives and if proven to be malicious then deal with them in a way which will be a deterrent to others

[LeoMc]

I don't think anyone disputes that suspicions (however ill informed) should be reported and acted upon. My only issue is with the form that action takes.

Were there allegations of abuse? If so removing the child is the appropriate action.
If there were no allegations of abuse and the child was in a safe family environment ( a HSE home visit could establish that) then forcibly removing the child IS the abuse.

If we go back to the jokes about Ginger Windsors should the Met have kicked down the door of Clarence house and removed Harry? A DNA test would have removed all speculation.

[muppet]

Bad story from the UK (they have lots of bad history of history in this area) where they permanently took children off a mother on the basis the husband was an abuser which was never proved. Meanwhile they were happy to employ the mother in public childcare throughout her whole ordeal!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0NRXQgc6eA

To give some credit to our authorities, at least they backed down when it was obvious they got it wrong. Unlike the British authorities in 1987 in Cleveland and in the video above.

[Declan]

Note the emphasis on article 12 re an immediate and real risk

How did gardai use their emergency power under s. 12 of the Child Care Act 1991 in these cases? (Hear the Special Rapporteur for Child Protection discuss the legal issues here.) S. 12 allows Gardai to summarily remove a child from the family home into the care of the HSE. The garda must have reasonable grounds for believing that there is an immediate and serious risk to the health or welfare of a child. This is not a new statutory provision. It is not clear what immediate and serious risk was present in that case, or what reasonable grounds the gardai were acting upon.

http://humanrights.ie/children-and-the-law/race-roma-parents-and-the-child-care-act/

[muppet]

Note the emphasis on article 12 re an immediate and real risk

How did gardai use their emergency power under s. 12 of the Child Care Act 1991 in these cases? (Hear the Special Rapporteur for Child Protection discuss the legal issues here.) S. 12 allows Gardai to summarily remove a child from the family home into the care of the HSE. The garda must have reasonable grounds for believing that there is an immediate and serious risk to the health or welfare of a child. This is not a new statutory provision. It is not clear what immediate and serious risk was present in that case, or what reasonable grounds the gardai were acting upon.

http://humanrights.ie/children-and-the-law/race-roma-parents-and-the-child-care-act/

This is the key, thanks Declan.

What specific evidence did they use to determine there were "reasonable grounds for believing that there is an immediate and serious risk to the health or welfare of a child" on tuesday, when that evidence obviously didn't exist yesterday evening?

[muppet]

Incredibly, the initial complaint was raised on FaceBook.

This is the original complaint: